The James McClean Sponsored Poppy Thread

[Bairnardo]

I agree with your sentiment but you should read "The secret origins of World War 1" if you think that WW1 wasn't politically motivated.

I agree.

But when it comes to the shite wars we’ve been involved in in modern times it’s the politicians, not the armed forces that get my anger.

I know some of them (maybe a lot) will be c***s but I feel for a young guy sent to die in a war dreamed up by wealthy born p***ks who’ve never seen a day of war in their life.

Fair points from both of you but as I have said before, the diffeence is a vast number of those who fought werent doing so as their occupation and in pursuit of a wage. Especially WW2. Imagine how many people would have died at the hands of the Nazis if they hadnt picked up the gun.

And I am not romanticising it or giving it the thicko "we would be speaking German...." angle. That was a wolf at the door scenario. I had colossal respect for what so many young guys did in response. I quite simply cant equate that to soldiers joining up and then going to fight in Afghanistan at the behest of the Americans.

Its tragic that lads die in those curcumstances, but its just not the same

[Dons_1988]

Fair points from both of you but as I have said before, the diffeence is a vast number of those who fought werent doing so as their occupation and in pursuit of a wage. Especially WW2. Imagine how many people would have died at the hands of the Nazis if they hadnt picked up the gun.

And I am not romanticising it or giving it the thicko "we would be speaking German...." angle. That was a wolf at the door scenario. I had colossal respect for what so many young guys did in response. I quite simply cant equate that to soldiers joining up and then going to fight in Afghanistan at the behest of the Americans.

Its tragic that lads die in those curcumstances, but its just not the same

Oh I totally agree with all of that.

I’m just not an anti armed forces person per se.

I’m anti the circus around poppies, the poppy police, the point scoring and the fact it’s been politicised to distract from the shambolic reasons these lads are sent away to these places.

[Shotgun]

24 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

Last year they were demanding action against the local leisure centre management because they wouldn't allow him to leave collection tins in the centres (they already have 3 charities which they donate to). The snivelling fucker ran to his Councillor pals who "had a word" and he got his way.

We had a similar "trial by social media" here a while back after a bunch of military fetishists mounted a campaign against a local supermarket for "refusing to let us place our Troop Support Group collection boxes inside the store." Howls of outrage and demands for boycotts all round. What was overlooked was that the supermarket was a long-time supporter of a different Troop Support Group and had their collection boxes prominently displayed by the front doors and at the registers. It just wasn't this particular Troop Support Group.

So these fuckers actually expected the supermarket to have multiple collection boxes for almost identical charities side by side in their store. And were doing all they could do damage their business because the supermarket didn't see it that way.

[Bairnardo]

Oh I totally agree with all of that.

I’m just not an anti armed forces person per se.

I’m anti the circus around poppies, the poppy police, the point scoring and the fact it’s been politicised to distract from the shambolic reasons these lads are sent away to these places.

Totally. I don't have a problem with the military at all. Like you its the politicians, and the media and public drivel that is encouraged. We are on the same page here.

[sjc]

25 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Fair points from both of you but as I have said before, the diffeence is a vast number of those who fought werent doing so as their occupation and in pursuit of a wage. Especially WW2. Imagine how many people would have died at the hands of the Nazis if they hadnt picked up the gun.

And I am not romanticising it or giving it the thicko "we would be speaking German...." angle. That was a wolf at the door scenario. I had colossal respect for what so many young guys did in response. I quite simply cant equate that to soldiers joining up and then going to fight in Afghanistan at the behest of the Americans.

Its tragic that lads die in those curcumstances, but its just not the same

Again I don't disagree with your sentiments but people talk about the Nazis like they invented fascism. They got a lot of their eugenicist ideology from 1920's America, where forced sterilisations of undesirables were legal in 20+ states. Not to mention Hitler was funded to power by the likes of Prescott Bush (yes, father of Bush 43, & grandfather of Bush 45), Paul Walburg and the rest of the banking elite. Don't think WW2 was any different from WW1. 

Major General Smedley Butler was right. "War is a racket"

*just to be clear, I'm in no way defending the Nazis btw.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by sjc

[Bairnardo]

Again I don't disagree with your sentiments but people talk about the Nazis like they invented fascism. They got a lot of their eugenicist ideology from 1920's America, where forced sterilisations of undesirables were legal in 20+ states. Not to mention Hitler was funded to power by the likes of Prescott Bush (yes, father of Bush 43, & grandfather of Bush 45), Paul Walburg and the rest of the banking elite. Don't think WW2 was any different from WW1. 
Major General Smedley Butler was right. "War is a racket"
*just to be clear, I'm in no way defending the Nazis btw.
 

But they were rounding up and gassing people on an industrial scale though, just as an example. WW2 makes me think of my granddad, gone now but in no way a fighting man. In no way a man who was proud to British or any of the cliched stuff we see in association with the armed forces. A clever guy and a pen pusher basically all his days

He put himself in a lancaster bomber in response to the threat from Nazi Germany. Thats the benchmark on which I judge the difference. Him then is me when I was a younger man. There were thousands like him and I cannot say I would be as brave as they were. For that reason I believe all efforts should be made to ensure these guys live out there days in dignity. It is hard not to talk in romanticised terms but thats jsut how I see it for them.

Thing is, IMO his generation dont want a fuss made. The gaudy displays now are done in spite of those guys, not for them. In my expereince its not what people of that generation want. They are being sidelined from their own cause. Its fucking putrid tbh. Theres also the angle that asking the public to pay to look after veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq is a crutch that allowd the govt to disregard their duty of care.

[bennett]

5 hours ago, hearthammer said:

I used to buy a poppy, but in more recent years, since the hijacking of same by the The rangers (1872-2012 r.i.p) clan as their symbol of staunchness and loyalty, i don't buy or wear one.

  

I doubt that's true.

 

[The_Kincardine]

55 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

59 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I do feel a bit for the veterans of the world wars that a significant number are so bitter towards it now because of what it’s become tbh.

The British legion love it though as I bet donations in the last 10 years or so have rocketed.

I know we all post about it every year, but as far as I am concerned any sense of duty to the poppy fund will die with the last world war 2 veteran. They are the people for whom I believe we have a duty of care and owe a debt. After that, the UK govt have sent soldiers to die in politically motivated conflicts and I wont be a part of paying for it over and above my taxes.

The problem with this is that it's a half truth.

The worst, most atrocious, "politically motivated conflict" was The Great War which was the most pointless, deliberate loss of life in human history.  Over 100 years on and no one can agree on what caused it and who really won (I think it was the Americans, probably) but it was simply a massive dick-measuring contest between the 'great powers' and no one came out with any great credit.  Well, apart from The US and Hearts.

It was certainly a war that Britain should have had no part in and was the worst example of a politically motivated war I can think of.  So to write off more recent wars as sending off, "soldiers to die in politically motivated conflicts" is a little shallow as it's always been thus.

I haven't 'worn a poppy with pride' for at least 20 years.  I do, though, contribute to the British Legion each year.  Mostly because I hope that the WW1 symbol of the poppy becomes true and that the notion of the 'war to end all wars' will eventually come to actuality.  I wish this side of the poppy symbol would have a greater emphasis.  In the age of a professional army the idea of raising money for troops' post-demob welfare is a bit rich as that should be the government's responsibility.

[hearthammer]

1 minute ago, bennett said:

I doubt that's true.

 

Take my word for it.  It's true.    I understand you may be be wanting to delve for some pseudo-religious or other reason, but it is very much what it is.

Sorry to disappoint.

[bennett]

Just now, hearthammer said:

Take my word for it.  It's true.    I understand you may be be wanting to delve for some pseudo-religious or other reason, but it is very much what it is.

Sorry to disappoint.

If you don't want to wear or buy a poppy,  fair enough but going down the 'Cos Sevco' road as an excuse just makes your post ridiculous. 

 

[Bairnardo]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

The problem with this is that it's a half truth.

The worst, most atrocious, "politically motivated conflict" was The Great War which was the most pointless, deliberate loss of life in human history.  Over 100 years on and no one can agree on what caused it and who really won (I think it was the Americans, probably) but it was simply a massive dick-measuring contest between the 'great powers' and no one came out with any great credit.  Well, apart from The US and Hearts.

It was certainly a war that Britain should have had no part in and was the worst example of a politically motivated war I can think of.  So to write off more recent wars as sending off, "soldiers to die in politically motivated conflicts" is a little shallow as it's always been thus.

I haven't 'worn a poppy with pride' for at least 20 years.  I do, though, contribute to the British Legion each year.  Mostly because I hope that the WW1 symbol of the poppy becomes true and that the notion of the 'war to end all wars' will eventually come to actuality.  I wish this side of the poppy symbol would have a greater emphasis.  In the age of a professional army the idea of raising money for troops' post-demob welfare is a bit rich as that should be the government's responsibility.

But the motivation for guys going in the case of WW1 is somewhat superceded by the fact that they were conscripted IMO. Thats political too of course but it makes them more deserving of our support and remembrance. 

They are all gone now though. And soon all thats left to support is as you say, professional soldiers. 

[sjc]

2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

The problem with this is that it's a half truth.

The worst, most atrocious, "politically motivated conflict" was The Great War which was the most pointless, deliberate loss of life in human history.  Over 100 years on and no one can agree on what caused it and who really won (I think it was the Americans, probably) but it was simply a massive dick-measuring contest between the 'great powers' and no one came out with any great credit.  Well, apart from The US and Hearts.

It was certainly a war that Britain should have had no part in and was the worst example of a politically motivated war I can think of.  So to write off more recent wars as sending off, "soldiers to die in politically motivated conflicts" is a little shallow as it's always been thus.

I haven't 'worn a poppy with pride' for at least 20 years.  I do, though, contribute to the British Legion each year.  Mostly because I hope that the WW1 symbol of the poppy becomes true and that the notion of the 'war to end all wars' will eventually come to actuality.  I wish this side of the poppy symbol would have a greater emphasis.  In the age of a professional army the idea of raising money for troops' post-demob welfare is a bit rich as that should be the government's responsibility.

You're not far off but I'd recommend you read "the secret origins of World War 1" too. A fascinating and well referenced read.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

We had a similar "trial by social media" here a while back after a bunch of military fetishists mounted a campaign against a local supermarket for "refusing to let us place our Troop Support Group collection boxes inside the store." Howls of outrage and demands for boycotts all round. What was overlooked was that the supermarket was a long-time supporter of a different Troop Support Group and had their collection boxes prominently displayed by the front doors and at the registers. It just wasn't this particular Troop Support Group.
So these fuckers actually expected the supermarket to have multiple collection boxes for almost identical charities side by side in their store. And were doing all they could do damage their business because the supermarket didn't see it that way.

How dare ONLY three Supermarkets take part officially.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, Bairnardo said:

But the motivation for guys going in the case of WW1 is somewhat superceded by the fact that they were conscripted IMO. Thats political too of course but it makes them more deserving of our support and remembrance. 

They are all gone now though. And soon all thats left to support is as you say, professional soldiers. 

Well I did think of mentioning conscripts - and that's a good point - but then it gets complicated as we had National Servicemen (effectively conscripts) in Korea - and that had an arguably 'better' justification than WW1.  I'm happy for the poppy to have greater prominence as a peace symbol.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

But the motivation for guys going in the case of WW1 is somewhat superceded by the fact that they were conscripted IMO. Thats political too of course but it makes them more deserving of our support and remembrance. 
They are all gone now though. And soon all thats left to support is as you say, professional soldiers. 

Tbf conscription was only in place from 1916. The first two years very much relied in jingoism, patriotism, "pals battalions" etc. Once they were massacred in eye watering numbers, conscription was implemented.

[sjc]

10 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

But they were rounding up and gassing people on an industrial scale though, just as an example. WW2 makes me think of my granddad, gone now but in no way a fighting man. In no way a man who was proud to British or any of the cliched stuff we see in association with the armed forces. A clever guy and a pen pusher basically all his days

He put himself in a lancaster bomber in response to the threat from Nazi Germany. Thats the benchmark on which I judge the difference. Him then is me when I was a younger man. There were thousands like him and I cannot say I would be as brave as they were. For that reason I believe all efforts should be made to ensure these guys live out there days in dignity. It is hard not to talk in romanticised terms but thats jsut how I see it for them.

Thing is, IMO his generation dont want a fuss made. The gaudy displays now are done in spite of those guys, not for them. In my expereince its not what people of that generation want. They are being sidelined from their own cause. Its fucking putrid tbh. Theres also the angle that asking the public to pay to look after veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq is a crutch that allowd the govt to disregard their duty of care.

Absolutely, I have nothing but respect for those that signed up in WW1 & WW2. Doesn't mean they weren't politically motivated wars though.

[hearthammer]

2 minutes ago, bennett said:

If you don't want to wear or buy a poppy,  fair enough but going down the 'Cos Sevco' road as an excuse just makes your post ridiculous. 

 

I used to support that charity, along with many others, when appropriate.  After it became the badge of honour for the The rangers, who apparently support the armed forces - except when legitimately paying through the correct channels like everyone else to do so - it became their "cause celebre".  I chose not to be associated with that hijacking. 

I do, however, pay contributions regularly to a charity close to my heart - CHAS.   I trust that will meet with your approval.  

[The_Kincardine]

5 minutes ago, hearthammer said:

I used to support that charity, along with many others, when appropriate.  After it became the badge of honour for the The rangers, who apparently support the armed forces

"Aye, but Rangers fans..."  Dreary me.

[yoda]

Having googled Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War, it appears to be conspiratorial nonsense written by two unqualified "alternative historians".

Pick up an actual book on the First World War instead. Not some poorly researched babble. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

I do feel a bit for the veterans of the world wars that a significant number are so bitter towards it now because of what it’s become tbh.

Barely a handful are still alive and many (arguably most) didn't engage with this nonsense while they were still around. The poppy's association with Douglas Haig was  one issue, as well as the fact that armchair militarism wasn't really a done thing until the UK inevitably imported it from America in recent decades.