Scotrail

[strichener]

4 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Sorry to be one of these c***s, parking charges are enforceable but only in a civil court, the difference between Scotland and England is that up here it's the driver who is liable and not necessarily the owner, so they would have to A, have enough of a potential gain to bother taking you to court and B - be able to prove who parked the car.

It's actually coming to an end, folk taking the piss have fucked it for everyone now and the Scottish government have promised that owner liability is coming which will bring us in line with the rest of the UK.

On topic, these penalty fares would most likely be ignored by anyone who had the brass neck to just do so, but if the BTP were to take people to task it could be different, but there's no way they're going to take on a conductors role and it's out of Scotrails hands anyway. having a conductor is enough by itself to make most people pay and that's all they really need to do, there will be an acceptance of a certain percentage on non paying passengers vs the cost of eradicating it 

You should clarify here that this relates to private parking companies.  Aberdeenshire, for example, has not decriminalised parking.

Edited June 17, 2022 by strichener

[Todd_is_God]

6 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I can just imagine a conductor confronting a group of steaming guys on the last train from Central on a Saturday night. If the condcutor is lucky they tell him to f**k off, and if he is unlucky he gets attacked by a drunken bam. Who’s more equipped to deal with that particular situation? The conductor or a police officer?

You're right, we should just allow people to travel for free in case they are an arsehole.

7 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

What’s your wage threshold for getting your teeth punched out then? 

I was pointing out that your "for a train conductor's wage" point was a shite one.

[AyrExile]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

A starting salary of £33k plus incentives (if this is accurate) is far more than a teacher receives at the start of their career. A teacher is not a working class position and never has been. 

If Mr. Conductor is lucky enough to meet future Mrs Conductor then their household earnings would be in the region of £70k. This is not working class by any serious definition either. 

Only in Scotland* does 99% of society desperately try to insist on their dyed in the wool working-class status, brooking no comparison in the process. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* maybe Wales as well, but who really cares about them. 

They also get a small percentage of on board ticket sales which provides a boost. Still a bit of jump from the people checking tickets at the Odeon 

[Marshmallo]

27 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

Ok  What’s your wage threshold for getting your teeth punched out then? 
 

I can just imagine a conductor confronting a group of steaming guys on the last train from Central on a Saturday night. If the conductor is lucky they tell him to f**k off, and if he is unlucky he gets attacked by a drunken bam. Who’s more equipped to deal with that particular situation? The conductor or a police officer?

How is the situation any different to asking them to buy a ticket if they don't have one?

[IrishBhoy]

13 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I was pointing out that your "for a train conductor's wage" point was a shite one.

I would be surprised if a train conductor takes home more than a British Transport Police officer btw. 
 

You may be right, using wages as a threshold is not a great argument to make. However, I’m struggling to see your point that a train conductor, who has received no training in de-escalation tactics, has no authority to apprehend someone committing an offence, has no ability to confirm a persons identity, has no ability to call for extra assistance if the situation escalates etc etc… is in a better position to deal with a fare dodger than a police officer? 

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I would be surprised if a train conductor takes home more than a British Transport Police officer btw. 
 

You may be right, using wages as a threshold is not a great argument to make. However, I’m struggling to see your point that a train conductor, who has received no training in de-escalation tactics, has no authority to apprehend someone committing an offence, has no ability to confirm a persons identity, has no ability to call for extra assistance if the situation escalates etc etc… is in a better position to deal with a fare dodger than a police officer? 

https://careers.btp.police.uk/roles/police-officer/

[IrishBhoy]

2 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

How is the situation any different to asking them to buy a ticket if they don't have one?

I think the point Todd is God is making is that the conductor should be more aggressive in demanding payment if the ticketless passenger tells them to go f**k themselves. By all means they should ask for a ticket, that is their job, but what means does a ticket conductor have at their disposal to then go on to demand payment on a moving train.
 

They could alert BTP that there is a ticketless passenger on board who is refusing to pay, and alert the driver that at the next station the BTP will board the train to deal with said passenger. That would be the correct way for the conductor to deal with that situation. 
 

Im genuinely surprised that people think train conductors should be the ones dealing with that sort of situation. If a fight broke out in the middle of Asda would you want the girl at the checkout to start dishing out right hands? Or would they phone the police and alert them that an offence has been committed? 

[Bonksy+HisChristianParade]

Spot on IMO. Conductors should only ask people to pay who look like wimps. Arguably wimps should pay double. Anyone who isn’t a dweeb or has had a couple of pints should be allowed on for free. 

[IrishBhoy]

This forum seems to be full of screwballs who wouldn’t think twice about marching up to a group of drunken guys with their train conductors outfit on, turning each one upside down by the ankles until the correct fare falls out of their pockets.
 

If you have such an issue with the role of a train conductor then I’m sure Scotrail would be more than happy to have a couple of enforcers roaming the carriages, the passengers too scared to even glance in your direction for fear of getting booted up and down the train. 

[Todd_is_God]

16 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I think the point Todd is God is making is that the conductor should be more aggressive in demanding payment if the ticketless passenger tells them to go f**k themselves. By all means they should ask for a ticket, that is their job, but what means does a ticket conductor have at their disposal to then go on to demand payment on a moving train.

They do not need to be aggresive at all. An explanation that as they have boarded a train without a valid ticket for their journey they have committed an offense and are being issued with a penalty fare is all that is required.

They then log their details and move on.

It quite literally happens like so all over the world.

Failure to provide details is already an offense, providing false details is already an offense, non-payment of a penalty fare is already an offense, threatening a ticket inspector is already an offense, and assaulting the ticket inspecter is quite obviously already an offense.

All the while their likeness is recorded on a body cam and can be sent to BTP if required later for identification of evaders / repeat offenders if necessary.

Penalty fares exist, remember, to deter fare evasion in the first place, not to enable ticket inspectors to maraud up and down trains trying to catch absolutely everyone out.

If you want to risk a criminal conviction because you can't be arsed paying your fare, and later act wide because you are issued a penalty fare, then that's on you and you deserve no sympathy IMO.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Left Back]

11 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

I think the point Todd is God is making is that the conductor should be more aggressive in demanding payment if the ticketless passenger tells them to go f**k themselves. By all means they should ask for a ticket, that is their job, but what means does a ticket conductor have at their disposal to then go on to demand payment on a moving train.
 

They could alert BTP that there is a ticketless passenger on board who is refusing to pay, and alert the driver that at the next station the BTP will board the train to deal with said passenger. That would be the correct way for the conductor to deal with that situation. 
 

Im genuinely surprised that people think train conductors should be the ones dealing with that sort of situation. If a fight broke out in the middle of Asda would you want the girl at the checkout to start dishing out right hands? Or would they phone the police and alert them that an offence has been committed? 

If they're handy enough they should get jobs as train conductors instead.  Pay's better.

[Todd_is_God]

7 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

This forum seems to be full of screwballs

I would suggest that the "screwball" here is the one who appears to believe the only penalty due to anyone caught stealing something is to be offered the chance to subsequently pay for what they tried to steal at face value and get on with their day.

[IrishBhoy]

11 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

They do not need to be aggresive at all. An explanation that as they have boarded a train without a valid ticket for their journey they have committed an offense and are being issued with a penalty fare.

They then log their details and move on.

Ok. Back to fantasy land then. So the conductor, who has absolutely no access to any sort of database in order to identify the passenger, and no authority to demand ID from them, pulls out his penalty notice pad and starts to write it out.
 

‘What’s your name mate your getting a fine for no paying for the train?’ 
 

‘Oh right am I? My name is Albert Square and I stay above the Queen Vic in Walford’ 

‘Ok good sir that all seems above board please pay your fine’. 

11 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

All the while their likeness is recorded on a body cam and can be sent to BTP if required later for identification of evaders / repeat offenders if necessar

Do you know how much resource would be required to have someone sitting watching body cam footage trying to match the face up to a name that may not even be on the police national computer? Absolute needle in a haystack stuff. 
 

As I said earlier, in an ideal world all of your suggestions are fairly sensible. However, in the real world, where we currently live, they are completely unworkable. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by IrishBhoy

[IrishBhoy]

4 minutes ago, Left Back said:

If they're handy enough they should get jobs as train conductors instead.  Pay's better.

First sensible thing that’s been posted on here for a few pages. 

[Todd_is_God]

@IrishBhoy what you repeatedly fail to acknowledge is that what you suggest doing is a genuine criminal offence, and being prosecuted for doing what you suggest would result in that person having a criminal record.

Of course it's impossible to catch everyone - but you only need a few prosecutions to begin to raise awareness of the penalty and, subsequently, reduce the instances of fare evasion.

That, afterall, is the entire point of having penalty fare deterrents in place.

 

[Todd_is_God]

14 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

in an ideal world all of your suggestions are fairly sensible. However, in the real world, where we currently live, they are completely unworkable. 

What is special about Scotrail trains that renders something that happens across the world "completely unworkable" here?

You are very much coming across as someone who feels fare evasion is fair game, and feels that being penalised in any way for being caught doing so is a ridiculous concept.

[IrishBhoy]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

@IrishBhoy what you repeatedly fail to acknowledge is that what you suggest doing is a genuine criminal offence, and being prosecuted for doing what you suggest would result in that person having a criminal record.

Of course it's impossible to catch everyone - but you only need a few prosecutions to begin to raise awareness of the penalty and, subsequently, reduce the instances of fare evasion.

That, afterall, is the entire point of having penalty fare deterrents in place.

 

I completely understand that point. It’s a sensible solution. If ScotGov introduced a policy where boarding a train without a valid ticket was an offence punishable by a monetary fine, then I am absolutely certain the amount of people dodging fares would fall dramatically. Absolutely no issue with any of that. 
 

If that was the road that Scotrail/ScotGov went down to curtail fare dodging then there would need to be a minimum of one conductor on every service, trained to a higher standard than they are currently and with the authority to issue on the spot penalties. There would also need to be support from BTP to deal with the inevitable confrontations that would arise from people giving absolutely no respect towards a train conductor. I don’t think it’s something that will ever happen, because as I said earlier, it’s a price that the police and Scotrail staff are willing to pay to keep some sort of ‘peace’. 

[IrishBhoy]

20 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

What is special about Scotrail trains that renders something that happens across the world "completely unworkable" here?

You are very much coming across as someone who feels fare evasion is fair game, and feels that being penalised in any way for being caught doing so is a ridiculous concept.

I honestly don’t. I’m just trying to think one step beyond ‘give train conductors the authority to issue on the spot penalty notices’. Its never going to happen. 
 

I wonder how the RMT would react to their members being put in a position of dealing with criminal offences without anything close to the proper training? The RMT petition their members for strike action if they don’t like the smell of a jobby in Central Station toilets. Good luck asking them to allow conductors to confront drunk and aggressive passengers to demand payment or be issued with fines. Fantasy land. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by IrishBhoy

[Todd_is_God]

3 minutes ago, IrishBhoy said:

If that was the road that Scotrail/ScotGov went down to curtail fare dodging then there would need to be a minimum of one conductor on every service

No there wouldn't. That idea is that the threat of being issued with a penalty fare if caught is enough to dissuade people from chancing it. By the time you board a train, if you've already bought your ticket, that no-one later inspects it makes no difference.

I've travelled on trains in Germany multiple times and seen a ticket inspector once. Not a chance i'd risk it, though, as they don't f**k about if they catch you.

All that is required is regular issuing and publicising of penalty fares.

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

No there wouldn't. That idea is that the threat of being issued with a penalty fare if caught is enough to dissuade people from chancing it. By the time you board a train, if you've already bought your ticket, that no-one later inspects it makes no difference.

I've travelled on trains in Germany multiple times and seen a ticket inspector once. Not a chance i'd risk it, though, as they don't f**k about if they catch you.

All that is required is regular issuing and publicising of penalty fares.

I honestly think all of this has been thought about, but the financial outlay required to implement it and enforce it does not square with the current cost of fare dodgers.

As an aside, didnt the rules change in the last 2 or 3 years re boarding without a ticket anyway?