pandarilla Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Banana are you not usually on the other side when so-called baseless accusations are being thrown around? Hiding behind the term 'anti Semitic' is surely comparable to hiding behind the term 'racist'? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Mark likes Israel, I'm Palestine. Makes it much more interesting if you pick sides. Fair enough After all we all do that for World Cup finals and things like that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, pandarilla said: Banana are you not usually on the other side when so-called baseless accusations are being thrown around? Hiding behind the term 'anti Semitic' is surely comparable to hiding behind the term 'racist'? Indeed... 19 hours ago, banana said: Activists redefining words to silence opposition via claims of bigotry, you say? I'm merely holding folk to their own standards, rules, definitions in the hope of introspection, moderation, and moving closer to some level of consensus of the truth. When everyone's a "Nazi!", no-one's a Nazi. (There are some actual bigots on the forum, as far as I can tell.) Edited September 27, 2017 by banana 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Israel as a country is a massive c**t, propped up by Americans and allowed to repeatedly violate international law whenever they feel like it. I have a severe dislike for Israel but not the Jewish people. If calling the nation of Israel a bunch of scumbags is anti semitic then so be it. They've created the biggest concentration camp ever with not a hint of remorse from the politicians or most of the citizens. f**k them. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagyar 2nd String Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 God almighty the Labour conference is utterly cringe worthy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banana Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 6 hours ago, AUFC90 said: Israel as a country is a massive c**t, propped up by Americans and allowed to repeatedly violate international law whenever they feel like it. I have a severe dislike for Israel but not the Jewish people. If calling the nation of Israel a bunch of scumbags is anti semitic then so be it. They've created the biggest concentration camp ever with not a hint of remorse from the politicians or most of the citizens. f**k them. Some truth in that, but what's your plan of action otherwise for a country surrounded by various levels and manifestations of hostile forces? Forego its own interests and play nicey nicey? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 On 26/09/2017 at 10:49, welshbairn said: They've got a strange definition of antisemitism. They use this one Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion. Making mendacious, dehumanising, demonising, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust). Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination (e.g. by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour). Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterise Israel or Israelis. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel. The bolded ones seem more pertinent to this discussion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Some truth in that, but what's your plan of action otherwise for a country surrounded by various levels and manifestations of hostile forces? Forego its own interests and play nicey nicey? I wonder how said forces are so hostile. Anyway I'm specifically talking about their occupation and subjugation of the Palestinian people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmothecat2 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Hard to disagree with anything here. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/labour-denial-antisemitism-party-dark-place 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 And these definitions are used by Israeli backed groups to condemn anyone who challenges Israel as racist. Also... Today Interpol recognised Palestinine as a full member. Corbyn refused to go to a "friends of Israel " meeting last night then today pledged support for Palestine, oooffff. if you think story's about Labours 'Anti-Semetic problem' are a problem at the moment, you ain't seen noyhing yet, The Pro Israeli groups will stop at nothing to prevent Corbyn from becoming PM I should point out that I was neither endorsing nor condemning the definition and merely posting it as a point of information Most of them seem fair enough and fall within what most reasonable people would think of as antisemitism (The blood libel, holocaust denial, collective blame etc...) A few seem like catchall criteria that can be interpreted very loosely or narrowly as one chooses The more general problem is that these figures don't go into any detail of what the infringements were which means that direct comparison of numbers is problematic to say the least To illustrate the point imagine the extreme scenario where Party A has 13 people boycotting Jaffa oranges while Party B has 6 holocaust deniers it would be ludicrous to say that there is twice as much of a problem in Party A 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmothecat2 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 More bullshit from the "Israel Ethnic cleansing denier" Jonathan Freeland of the Jewish Chronicle Jonathan Freelandhttps://electronicintifada.net/blogs/david-cronin/how-guardian-told-me-steer-clear-palestine You aren't going to actually engage with the article, just try to attack the man who wrote it by quoting another rabid Israel hater? Do you really believe there's no antisemitism in the Labour Party or in the antizionism movement? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Hard to disagree with anything here. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/27/labour-denial-antisemitism-party-dark-place I disagree and I'm only on the first paragraph. Your not Jewish so your opinion on the matter is invalid? What utter bollocks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Also, no mention of shami chakrabarti. Mainly because it doesn't suit his attack on 'old, white men'. It's a shockingly biased article from a pretty poor contributor. I read the Guardian and I don't think I've ever been impressed by this blairite hack. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmothecat2 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 I disagree and I'm only on the first paragraph. Your not Jewish so your opinion on the matter is invalid? What utter bollocks. Three white men claiming there's not antisemitism in the party being taken as gospel by some when the testimony of Jews in the party is being ignored by them is concerning. He's right that any other minority or peoples who face prejudice people on the progressive side of politics would put extra weight on their views of the matters. Black lives matter for example, how ludicrous would it look if people took some white people's views on the issue and ignored the voices of the black people actually being victimised? It wouldn't happen, yet with the Jews people are happy to cheer on the Gentiles who don't feel the antisemitism who claim it doesn't occur. Can non-Jews take an opinion on antisemitism in the party? Of course they can. But equally it has to be viewed for what it is, someone from a privileged position who hasn't experienced the prejudice is going to take on such an issue. To see them (two of them people who have expressed antisemitic remarks in the past) dismiss the genuine concerns brought up simply because they haven't experienced them is hurtful. To see them paraded on the media is hurtful. To see people who want to pretend this isn't an issue tweet their remarks is hurtful. And it is worth remarking on. Moreso because we are a progressive party and a progressive movement and when it comes to 'identity politics' (for lack of a better expression) that's the line we take on everything else, except when it comes to Jews. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 There's one big, big difference with the example you're comparing. Palestine, and specifically the treatment of palestinians by the state of Israel. They are the powerful force in that particular dynamic, and that makes it a very different situation from black lives matter. I'd suggest the comparison ought to be that Palestinian lives matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmothecat2 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 There's one big, big difference with the example you're comparing. Palestine, and specifically the treatment of palestinians by the state of Israel. They are the powerful force in that particular dynamic, and that makes it a very different situation from black lives matter. I'd suggest the comparison ought to be that Palestinian lives matter. The state of Israel. Not Jews in the Labour Party. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 The state of Israel. Not Jews in the Labour Party. Yeah but that's what the whole debate is about. You can't separate these issues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmothecat2 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Yeah but that's what the whole debate is about. You can't separate these issues. Disagreement with Israel is no excuse for antisemitism at all. That their antisemitism leads itself to hating Israel and holding it on this weird pedestal they don't hold other countries is a different matter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 Absolutely stunned to discover arch Blairite and stout defender of Israel Jonathan Freedland thinks anti-Semitism is rife in a Corbyn led Labour Party. It's the biggest political party membership in Europe I believe, there's bound to be some individuals with unsavoury views. He holds up Loach, Livingston and a fringe Marxist group as evidence that Labour are a Nazi party in waiting. 4 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said: Disagreement with Israel is no excuse for antisemitism at all. Legitimate criticism of the Israeli state is no excuse for accusations of anti Semitism either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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