General Politics Thread

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

Indeed, the likes of Dresden was totally raised when the war was effectively over and was seen by many as revenge for Coventry.

Where you have war, empires, occupation of foreign territory etc then it's pretty obvious that everyone involved will be committing horrific crimes against their fellow humanity as pretty much par for the course, irrespective of whether they are the victors or the defeated, although being the victors generally allows you to rewrite history in your favour..........

I thought the bombing of Dresden was done to appease Stalin and convince him the Allies were willing to help the Russians.

In terms of revenge, it is all a bit disproportionate.  For every ton dropped on the UK, there was 315 tonnes dropped on Germany.

Less then 500 died at Coventry.  25,000 died in Dresden.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

I thought the bombing of Dresden was done to appease Stalin and convince him the Allies were willing to help the Russians.

In terms of revenge, it is all a bit disproportionate.  For every ton dropped on the UK, there was 315 tonnes dropped on Germany.

Less then 500 died at Coventry.  25,000 died in Dresden.

I suppose we would need to ask Churchill for his reasons.

Irrespective, it would be seen as a war crime at any other time.

[renton]

7 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

I thought the bombing of Dresden was done to appease Stalin and convince him the Allies were willing to help the Russians.

In terms of revenge, it is all a bit disproportionate.  For every ton dropped on the UK, there was 315 tonnes dropped on Germany.

Less then 500 died at Coventry.  25,000 died in Dresden.

Also to fire a shot across Stalin's bow. By then it was becoming obvious that the Soviets weren't going to be playing ball post war, and a demonstration of the Western Allies respective might was felt to be necessary.

It is funny how much hay is made out of the London Blitz when you consider that the damage inflicted in the other direction was so much more severe.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, renton said:

Also to fire a shot across Stalin's bow. By then it was becoming obvious that the Soviets weren't going to be playing ball post war, and a demonstration of the Western Allies respective might was felt to be necessary.

It is funny how much hay is made out of the London Blitz when you consider that the damage inflicted in the other direction was so much more severe.

Just typical propaganda, it's only when you become older and wiser that you realise that what you've been fed for years is pretty much the exact same as the "pravda" that we used to demean the Russians about.

It's seemed worse and more blatant in recent years but maybe that's just because we now see it for what it is.

[welshbairn]

55 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

I thought the bombing of Dresden was done to appease Stalin and convince him the Allies were willing to help the Russians.

In terms of revenge, it is all a bit disproportionate.  For every ton dropped on the UK, there was 315 tonnes dropped on Germany.

Less then 500 died at Coventry.  25,000 died in Dresden.

They started it, and I'm sure Hitler and Goring would have had no qualms about doing a Dresden or Hamburg on London if Biggles and co hadn't got in the way. Rule Britannia!

[Fullerene]

30 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

They started it, and I'm sure Hitler and Goring would have had no qualms about doing a Dresden or Hamburg on London if Biggles and co hadn't got in the way. Rule Britannia!

Yes.  Speak to anyone of that generation (not so many of them around now) and they would say Germany and Japan got what they deserved and had only themselves to blame.

I also suspect Germany and Japan would both have been happy to use nuclear weapons if they actually had them.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Pile on by '#NoDealNow' types on Twitter against Greer has sort of proved his point that it is difficult to raise any legitimate criticisms of Churchill without your arguments being immediately shouted down or utterly misrepresented.

Some morons on the BBC HYS even using the "scum SNP MP" line. 

 

 

Ignoramuses.

 

 

 

[Mark Connolly]

8 hours ago, UsedToGoToCentralPark said:

Possible MP going to jail today:

Court 2 at 10am Sentence of former Peterborough MP Fiona Onasanya and her brother Festus, who lied to get out of a speeding conviction.

Any excuse to post one of the great wrestling themes.

 

[JamieThomas]

7 hours ago, WATTOO said:

Even those who are often held up as pillars of virtue such as Nelson Mandela and Che Guevara were both directly and indirectly responsible for multiple atrocities, however this often seems to be overlooked for some strange reason.

"Because they were cool as f**k" isn't a strange reason

[The_Kincardine]

6 hours ago, Londonwell said:

Why are people not so fond of Greer? I don't know that much about him but have seen a lot of "Greer's a p***k but he done well there" sort of thing.

Blind prejudice.  He looks like Ad Lib and Im_Rodger's b*****d love child.

[Ned Nederlander]

I remember a team building event at work about 10 years ago where we debated the 'Greatest Brit' and almost everyone knew that Churchill wasn't all he was cracked up to be so I'm genuinely surprised at the levels if ignorance being shown by folk who quite literally have all the details at their fingertips.

 

 

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

5 minutes ago, Ned Nederlander said:

I remember a team building event at work about 10 years ago where we debated the 'Greatest Brit' and almost everyone knew that Churchill wasn't all he was cracked up to be 

Exactly. We all know it's Princess Di.

[BawWatchin]

1 hour ago, Ned Nederlander said:

I remember a team building event at work about 10 years ago where we debated the 'Greatest Brit' and almost everyone knew that Churchill wasn't all he was cracked up to be so I'm genuinely surprised at the levels if ignorance being shown by folk who quite literally have all the details at their fingertips.

I wouldn't worry about it. Those who laud him know he was a vile racist and tend to be themselves.

[welshbairn]

9 hours ago, Fullerene said:

Yes.  Speak to anyone of that generation (not so many of them around now) and they would say Germany and Japan got what they deserved and had only themselves to blame.

I also suspect Germany and Japan would both have been happy to use nuclear weapons if they actually had them.

I think that attitude comes more from the baby boomers than people who actually were in the war. My Dad thought that Dresden and Nagasaki especially rather than Hiroshima were inexcusable. He also thought that the EU was one of the greatest achievements for peace in history. Old people get a bad reputation, but it's their surviving children who are doing the damage, apart from me.

[The_Kincardine]

21 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think that attitude comes more from the baby boomers than people who actually were in the war. My Dad thought that Dresden and Nagasaki especially rather than Hiroshima were inexcusable. He also thought that the EU was one of the greatest achievements for peace in history. Old people get a bad reputation, but it's their surviving children who are doing the damage, apart from me.

There is (unusually) some truth in what you say, Welshy.  My auld man would have largely agreed with you there.

What, for me, is more worthy of exploration is the tendency of some to try and disassociate themselves from our collective past.  This is writ large in the rewritten narrative of South Ireland which has largely attempted to disassociate itself from what we'd now call (using more modern terminology a la The Lions) The British and Irish Empire.  You also see the same trend amongst the empty headed Yessers.  For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 'Empire' is something that happened to them rather than both countries being absolutely up to their oxters in Empire and slavery from providing capital to providing soldiers.

You see the same tendency - a desire to shite the bed when it comes to responsibility - when it comes to The Honourable Member for Dundee.  He may well have been flawed and he may well have made some poor decisions but he was very much a politician made in Scotland.  

So racist?  White supremacist?  War criminal?  Possibly and arguably.  Were he, though, then we're all culpable.  That's how collective responsibility works.

[Bully Wee Villa]

I like the new avatar, mate. Love Hitchcock films. 

[The_Kincardine]

8 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I like the new avatar, mate. Love Hitchcock films. 

That leaves me Spellbound.

[welshbairn]

24 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

I like the new avatar, mate.  

Big improvement on the apartheid memorabilia, to be sure, to be sure. Maybe just a sense of collective responsibility for the worship of King Billy on the flag though.

Edited January 30, 2019 by welshbairn

[Bully Wee Villa]

He's spoiled my joke, now. The little scamp. 

[Detournement]

8 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

There is (unusually) some truth in what you say, Welshy.  My auld man would have largely agreed with you there.

What, for me, is more worthy of exploration is the tendency of some to try and disassociate themselves from our collective past.  This is writ large in the rewritten narrative of South Ireland which has largely attempted to disassociate itself from what we'd now call (using more modern terminology a la The Lions) The British and Irish Empire.  You also see the same trend amongst the empty headed Yessers.  For some South Irish and for a peculiar group of Scots, 'Empire' is something that happened to them rather than both countries being absolutely up to their oxters in Empire and slavery from providing capital to providing soldiers.

You see the same tendency - a desire to shite the bed when it comes to responsibility - when it comes to The Honourable Member for Dundee.  He may well have been flawed and he may well have made some poor decisions but he was very much a politician made in Scotland.  

So racist?  White supremacist?  War criminal?  Possibly and arguably.  Were he, though, then we're all culpable.  That's how collective responsibility works.

What a load of shite. I can say easily say living Scottish people are racist right wing p***ks so saying it about Churchill is no problem.

There is no collective responsibility across time or class.