Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

['WellDel]

Agree that Turnbull is often unfairly seen as lacking fitness, that's simply not true and just his style of play not being suited to the way Postecoglu wanted his team to play. Under him, Celtic's midfield was very robust, dynamic and direct, playing from middle to front very quickly and getting the likes of Jota down the lines and in behind the full backs at pace. Turnbull's game is far more measured, getting his foot on the ball and pinging passes, looking for that killer through ball that no-one else has seen. He simply wasn't suited to that set up.

Maybe with Rodgers starting to mould the team into his own way of playing will see DT given another crack, but I get the feeling that a lot of Celtic fans have already made their minds up on him, and a fresh start elsewhere would be far more beneficial for him at this stage of his career. I'd say that at Parkhead his tea is just about oot.

[capt_oats]

21 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

Putting aside my disdain of Celtic (and Rangers), I can see no reason from a footballing perspective for a young Scottish player to move to either of them. It's about the most unadventurous move a player can make. Scud everyone domestically while routinely getting scudded in Europe - what can Turnbull be learning there (supposing he even plays)? 

A move to Germany, Italy or elsewhere in Europe would have been much better for his development IMO, as the likes of Hickey and Ferguson have shown. Trying to be unbiased, I'd say Turnbull was better than both of them during their time in Scotland but both have since surpassed him by trying a different country while Davie has barely kicked his own arse at Celtic. 

Tbh, this feels a bit reductive.

It's all very well talking about what moves a player should/shouldn't make but it overlooks the human aspect of it.

I'm not advocating young players sign for Celtic (and definitely not Rangers) but Turnbull was 19 and had played a total of 36 first team games for Motherwell when the original "magnificent" offer was tabled. When he eventually signed he was 21 with 41 first team games after rehabbing from a serious (knee) injury.

In contrast Lewis Ferguson was 18 when he signed his pre-contract with Aberdeen from Accies and was 23 with 169 games under his belt for Aberdeen when he signed for Bologna.

It's not really a like for like comparison. In terms of career trajectory Turnbull's Celtic Era is the equivalent of Ferguson's time at Pittodrie.

Fair fucks to Hickey for taking the risk but given he moved to Italy at the same point as Turnbull moved to Celtic it's not as if there was this well established track record of young Scots moving to Serie A.

To that point, I've always thought it was pretty clear why he opted for Celtic and regardless of how it's panned out it was a relatively sensible move given the circumstances - and one that's still seen him play over 100+ games for them and get Champions League fitba out of it.

As @Desp says he wanted to stay at home and wanted a realistic chance of getting games. IIRC the suggestion was that when he spoke to Norwich their plan for him was to start in their u23s whereas Lennon's pitch was for him to be part of Celtic's first team - he subsequently won PFA Young Player of The Year and both Celtic's POTY and YPOTY awards in the season he signed.

Obviously the fact that they fucked The Ten casts quite the fucking shadow and his face not fitting for Ange is just one of those things. As @'WellDel says it feels as though Celtic fans have made their minds up on him and a clean break would be the best for both parties.

Desp touched on it earlier but it'll be interesting to see if his experience at Celtic (for better or worse) has changed his perspective on things as far as his next move goes.

Edited October 17, 2023 by capt_oats

['WellDel]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

As @Desp Desp touched on it earlier but it'll be interesting to see if his experience at Celtic (for better or worse) has changed his perspective things as far as his next move goes.permit 

If he goes South I imagine it would be to the Championship which is just as much kick and rush as our game up here. Sure his game time at Celtic had been limited for some time, but he's still without doubt one of the most naturally gifted Scottish players of his generation. If his personal factors permit, I'd love to see a suitable offer come his way and for him to take the plunge and go to the continent. He's tailor made for it.

[Archie McSquackle]

Liam Kelly makes his debut for Scotland tonight as one of 8 changes. Going by the France line-up, he could have a busy night. Wouldn't surprise me if he and Clark get a half each. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Archie McSquackle
Changed to mention debut

[ropy]

On 14/10/2023 at 16:07, ropy said:

Our team is full of internationalists  

Fuller 

[Doctor Manhattan]

46 minutes ago, ropy said:

Fuller 

[ropy]

What did you think of Kelly’s international career?

[Casagolda]

12 hours ago, ropy said:

What did you think of Kelly’s international career?

Only saw the highlights but didn’t look like he could do much at any of the goals.

Two free headers in the six yard box and an Mbappe penalty. Clark had no chance at the fourth either to be fair. Would have been a good experience for the pair of them but I can imagine Gunn has much to worry about.

I really rated Kelly after his initial loan spell where he was genuinely outstanding and almost single handily kept us up, I was absolutely delighted when he returned on a 3 year deal. However given the reported fee and wages involved, it feels like he’s not really justified the effort or financial outlay to bring him back.

He’s a decent mid-table Scottish Premiership goalkeeper but he’s never really kicked on and I’d say if anything, he’s actually regressed a bit over the last couple of seasons. I can’t see us being able to sell him now and I doubt we’ll be offering him improved terms. 

I imagine we’ll shake hands and he’ll move on in the summer. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Casagolda

[well fan for life]

22 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

Only saw the highlights but didn’t look like he could do much at any of the goals.

Two free headers in the six yard box and an Mbappe penalty. Clark had no chance at the fourth either to be fair. Would have been a good experience for the pair of them but I can imagine Gunn has much to worry about.

I really rated Kelly after his initial loan spell where he was genuinely outstanding and almost single handily kept us up, I was absolutely delighted when he returned on a 3 year deal. However given the reported fee and wages involved, it feels like he’s not really justified the effort or financial outlay to bring him back.

He’s a decent mid-table Scottish Premiership goalkeeper but he’s never really kicked on and I’d say if anything, he’s actually regressed a bit over the last couple of seasons. I can’t see us being able to sell him now and I doubt we’ll be offering him improved terms. 

I imagine we’ll shake hands and he’ll move on in the summer. 

I wonder if he has regressed or if watching Chapman & Archer before him was just completely distorting our view on what a goalkeeper is supposed to do. 

[capt_oats]

I think Kelly has broadly been fine.

He is what he is, namely a decent mid-table goalkeeper.

I get that it's part of our sales pitch to platform players but I'm not sure that our trying to manifest him into being an International 'keeper has really done anyone any favours (although he now has his cap - good job everyone). In saying that, even allowing for the sort of money we paid for him/are rumoured to be paying him, you can probably trade that off with the fact that he helped keep us up in his loan stint and our league finishes since he's been here permanently have been 5th and 7th.

The other thing is that compared to someone like, say, Carson we've definitely got his money's worth out of Kelly in so much as he's been healthy and present. That's not a ding on Trev as by the time he left for United he seemed pretty much cursed but Kelly's played 44 more games than Carson and he's only been at the club 2.5 seasons.

IIRC United were rumoured to have been in for him when we signed him from QPR so - sliding doors and all that - it would have been quite annoying if they'd ended up with him.

I think there's a lot to be said for the school of thought that if we're overpaying for anyone it's worth it for a decent goalkeeper. Especially having seen the sort of damage a Twardzik or Samson can have on a season.

Fwiw, here's how Kelly compares with others:

Randolph - 134 games - 172 conceded (1.28 pg) - 43 clean sheets (32%)
Kelly - 122 games - 168 conceded (1.37 pg) - 33 clean sheets (27%)
Carson - 78 games - 101 conceded (1.29 pg) - 26 clean sheets (33%)
Gillespie - 67 games - 79 conceded (1.17 pg) - 25 clean sheets (37%)
Ruddy - 39 games - 60 conceded (1.53 pg) - 16 clean sheets (41%)

[eliphas]

Without repeating everything that was said probably a hundred pages back about the goalie and his predecessors - he does well for us more often than not and I'm more than content with him in nets for us.

Goalie stats I'm never bought on as it's got so much to do with the numpties in front of him. 

However, I don't really worry about him throwing an absolute howler and he's continually made some great stops to stop certain goals. Which is a nice place to be with a GK.  He obviously could improve and does make the odd mistake where he should save it. But it's rarely down to just him. As you say @capt_oats, if there is one position to 'overpay' someone it's his in my opinion. 

I'd argue he's better than more SPFL prem goalies than he's not, if that makes sense. He's not absolutely outstanding but if and when he leaves I'll be surprised if he doesn't get a decent gig ala Clark at Hearts.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by eliphas

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I like Kelly and I'd be happy for him to be our #1 for the next 10 years but not on the money (allegedly) involved. Possible to read too much into things but the captaincy and the way the social media accounts go on about him makes me worry about how highly he's rated internally and if we'll end up chucking more money at him.

[Swello]

If Kelly's time with us was plotted on a graph - it would be a shallow "U" shape. He started well (and fully agreeing with @well fan for life that he felt like the messiah after what came before and so was maybe overrated slightly), he definitely took a dip last season (but I would imagine any of our keepers of the past would have done the same given the fucking shit show under Hammel) and now it feels like he's back at his "normal" level. 

Also - nice to see him, or any 'Well player, get a full Scotland cap as it's fucking rare - so well done to him.

[eliphas]

4 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I like Kelly and I'd be happy for him to be our #1 for the next 10 years but not on the money (allegedly) involved. Possible to read too much into things but the captaincy and the way the social media accounts go on about him makes me worry about how highly he's rated internally and if we'll end up chucking more money at him.

He's not on a huge huge, breaks the structure, wage in comparison to other top earners really, from what I've heard.  He did get a big signing on fee though to lure him to the club though. Which, obviously, he wouldn't get again when he re-signs. 

I'd be surprised if he doesn't make a move in the summer.

[eliphas]

Mika and Obika out for the weekend but Butcher out of nowhere to 'Doubtful'....pleasing. Butcher and Casey in the same team should be a good laugh.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

4 hours ago, eliphas said:

He's not on a huge huge, breaks the structure, wage in comparison to other top earners really, from what I've heard.  He did get a big signing on fee though to lure him to the club though. Which, obviously, he wouldn't get again when he re-signs. 

I'd be surprised if he doesn't make a move in the summer.

Aye fair dues. I'm not sure if I ever actually heard someone hint at a weekly number of if I just made one up in my head and stuck to it tbh.

[Neil86]

It's very much a better the devil you know situation for me, and Kelly, at this level is pretty decent. The flip of that, is you get a Mark Birigihti and end up in the championship.

That extra few quid would seem worth it then.

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, eliphas said:

Mika and Obika out for the weekend but Butcher out of nowhere to 'Doubtful'....pleasing. Butcher and Casey in the same team should be a good laugh.

Is that not broadly in line with the projection?

Don't get me wrong, it's clearly good news but I'm fairly sure there was tentative mention of us hoping to have Butcher back around November which would track if he's been moved to the 'doubtful' list now.

On a related point, given Biereth was clearly photoshopped into the team photo for this season has it ever been confirmed if he's been doing his rehab with us or Arsenal?

Like, I assumed it'd be Arsenal but either way all the injury update said at the time was "Our loan agreement with Arsenal has not changed as a result of this injury."

The same update also said he was expected to miss 12 weeks. As of today we're 8 weeks and 2 days since that was posted.

Edited October 19, 2023 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

32 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Is that not broadly in line with the projection?

Don't get me wrong, it's clearly good news but I'm fairly sure there was tentative mention of us hoping to have Butcher back around November which would track if he's been moved to the 'doubtful' list now.

On a related point, given Biereth was clearly photoshopped into the team photo for this season has it ever been confirmed if he's been doing his rehab with us or Arsenal?

Like, I assumed it'd be Arsenal but either way all the injury update said at the time was "Our loan agreement with Arsenal has not changed as a result of this injury."

The same update also said he was expected to miss 12 weeks. As of today we're 8 weeks and 2 days since that was posted.

...cheers Ketts.

Quote

“We expect Mika to be back here and training with us next Thursday, if everything goes according to plan,” manager Stuart Kettlewell said.

“Having spoken to Mika and Arsenal, his recovery plan has gone exactly as planned.

“Jon Obika is a fraction further behind but Calum Butcher has trained on Monday, full contact training.

“It was a breath of fresh air to see him back and I was impressed by the levels he showed. He didn’t look as he was a million miles away from where he was before he got injured.

“He puts himself into contention to be in the squad on Saturday however it’s a big ask for him to start and we don’t want to ask him to do too much to soon.”

Link

[Neil86]

With Butcher back where does it leave us in terms of defence, does Mugabi drop out once he's fit?