Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Busta Nut]

11 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

 

the fact SK insists on him being a starting 6/8/10 option at all times is mental. That's a word salad of a sentence but you know what I mean, Paton is blatantly not good enough to be an on the pitch pick at all times in three different roles...it just doesn't compute.

 

Yes I get you, that's what is getting me about Paton. I think he does the "hard" stuff ok, then seems to f**k it but the way you see kettlewell preparing a sub, e.g. if Spittal had been available and coming on you'd think "straight swap for Paton in his advance role." but no, Kettlewell replaces anyone but, then plays mental chess fitting Paton in.  

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

If we are constantly losing the same types of goals and it goes across every defender we've got, it probably points to a deeper problem. While I don't think the situations are identical, Kettlewell solved the same situation last year where Hammell had seemed unable to stop us losing bad goals over a period of months. 

I don't know if there is such a thing as specialist defensive coaching in Scottish fitba - but I think we need to invent it if not as we can't continue the way things are and the current coaching team simply aren't fixing anything.

I found myself unreasonably annoyed at Kettlewell's post-match yesterday largely because it was such a callback to Hammell last season.

It's good that SK is acknowledging that we're losing soft/bad/cheap goals and it's probably fair to say that players need to take individual responsibility. However, last season Kettlewell fixed the issue by adding a new player to the group (Hammell signed Butcher to play in midfield) and moving away from the back 4 to a back 3 - which worked very well.

In this case we didn't sign another centre back (fair enough we have something like 6 anyway), we've not changed the shape and Kettlewell shows no appetite to swap out an underperforming goalkeeper.

If we're not actually going to make any changes like that we're back to asking the same players, in the same shape to...just defend better? That brings us back round to a question about defensive coaching.

You can get away with blaming individual mistakes every now and again but as you say, if we're losing the same types of goals on a regular basis then it's absolutely pointing to a deeper problem.

1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

I don't quite dislike Paton as much as others but I am starting to get annoyed with the hard on that Kettlewell seems to have for him.

58 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I'm often critical of Paton, I think he's reasonable but the fact SK insists on him being a starting 6/8/10 option at all times is mental. That's a word salad of a sentence but you know what I mean, Paton is blatantly not good enough to be an on the pitch pick at all times in three different roles...it just doesn't compute.

Besides the unpleasantness this is sort of the problem I have with Paton as well along with the fact that I don't actually think he's particularly suited to the role that he's currently being asked to play but he's a fixture there anyway.

[ropy]

Defensive coaching - get your head to the ball first.  Defenders have the advantage, anywhere away from goals will do, attackers have to hit a target.

[well fan for life]

53 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Besides the unpleasantness this is sort of the problem I have with Paton as well along with the fact that I don't actually think he's particularly suited to the role that he's currently being asked to play but he's a fixture there anyway.

He's not very good at any role in midfield. We've tried him as a 6 where he is miles off it defensively and when we're sticking him as a 10 he always picks the wrong option when in a promising position.

Kind of feels like an AI generated bottom 6 Scottish Football midfielder. Runs about a lot, offers f**k all constructive.

Edited February 18 by well fan for life

[CoF]

44 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

In this case we didn't sign another centre back (fair enough we have something like 6 anyway), we've not changed the shape and Kettlewell shows no appetite to swap out an underperforming goalkeeper.

I was half expecting a big squinty nosed centre half in January as no-one is exactly filling me with confidence just now, but I assume he’s hoping Butcher and Casey both replicate their form of last year (if they’d kind enough to get on the pitch at the same time that would be great thanks), and as a few have said - including yourself I’m sure-   key to that is replacing Furlong and Johnston as opposed to replacing well…. Butcher or Casey. Time will tell I suppose as it’s been calamitous so far. 

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Agree on Davor. 

Mugabi has games like yesterday when we're sitting deep defending and he just seems to win header after header, block after block and it teases you into thinking maybe...

Tbh you could just about make a case, individually, for the various ooc defenders we have even while it's been a collective disaster. I could imagine keeping one but we need bodies out the door to make a change.

I'm often critical of Paton, I think he's reasonable but the fact SK insists on him being a starting 6/8/10 option at all times is mental. That's a word salad of a sentence but you know what I mean, Paton is blatantly not good enough to be an on the pitch pick at all times in three different roles...it just doesn't compute.

And aye, someone else mentioned earlier that what little Obika offered earlier is now gone....the option in his contract better be on our side.

I think Paton has benefited greatly from the injuries and suspensions we have had. With Slattery injured and both Spittal and Halliday unavailable yesterday he had to start. Whether he should have remained on the pitch is another matter.

I know Davor was on a booking, but imho, he was having a better game. I would have kept him on again, just to try and protect the defence.

I know we lost a stupid first goal but there was still a point in that game for us and the subs (SOD apart as that was an injury) weakened us again both defensively and going forward.

I get that Vale was done but Obika is never the answer there.

First Ive really seen Nicholson and wasnt that impressed, but not sure he was put on in his natural role, so wont judge him until he has had a run of games.

Edited February 18 by joewarkfanclub

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

I think where my beef lies with the Mugabi & Paton situation more than anything is that I'm sure we'd all agree that both of them fit the profile we'd expect of a Motherwell squad player but here we are with Mugabi having started 22/26 games and Paton 20/26. Don't get me wrong, there are games in there where both have had to start due to numbers, but on a good day I'd consider both to be "decent" rather than "outstanding", so now we have a bench full of first team players, rather than strikers & kids, surely there's no need to use them as much. Even with that said, I'd comfortably say we're now in a position to say that Davor should have started some of the games that Paton did. 

So many times yesterday, our shape looked like a straight 5-4-1, if we were lining up like that with little intention to attack, we'd have been as well starting Buyabu and SOD instead of Paton and Vale.

I don't mind that 3-4-2-1 is his preferred shape and that's how we're likely to start most games, but yesterday it was just crying out for us to change the shape when we were down. 

[Handsome_Devil]

37 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

First Ive really seen Nicholson and wasnt that impressed, but not sure he was put on in his natural role, so wont judge him until he has had a run of games.

With Spittal being our best player, two of Halliday/Miller/Davor starting in the deeper roles and Paton to be included somewhere, Nicholson will be waiting some time to get any kind of run sadly regardless of whether we play 3-5-2 or 3-6-1.

Which seems a shame and counterproductive to me. He's not really kicked on from a promising cameo in Perth but whether it's his fault for not earning a chance or SK's fault for not giving him a chance I'm unsure.

[Casagolda]

3 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I found myself unreasonably annoyed at Kettlewell's post-match yesterday largely because it was such a callback to Hammell last season.

You’re not the only one. 

We’ve kept 3 clean sheets in 26 league games this season. We’ve now conceded 2(or more) goals in 46% of those league games. We’re well into double figures for goals conceded from set plays as well. So aye, much like Hammell scratching his head(literally) and bemoaning the loss of cheap goals, how about you(the manager) actually take some accountability and do something about it.

Also I know it’s shouldn’t by now but honestly, watching him chuck on a clearly finished Obika and a 17 year old laddie who struggled to get a game for Stenny just to continue with his throw as many strikers on as possible when chasing a game philosophy wound me up no end. Especially when it meant Nicholson, you know a winger with some actual pace and creativity, was forced to play as a deep central midfielder to accommodate them. 

Ultimately I think Kettlewell will probably get a new contract cause those in charge will see it as the path of least resistance. This last week felt like a big one though, things like winning a big cup tie at Cappielow or holding on at Pittodrie midweek are the sort of results that generate a feel good factor and could really get doubters(like me) onside with such a decision. 

However despite slowly coming round to the idea of keeping him after our recent ‘upturn’, I must admit watching us ship 7 goals in 8 days including another 3 from set pieces has me feeling like we’re back to square one. 

Edited February 18 by Casagolda

[joewarkfanclub]

49 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

You’re not the only one. 

We’ve kept 3 clean sheets in 26 league games this season. We’ve now conceded 2(or more) goals in 46% of those league games. We’re well into double figures for goals conceded from set plays as well. So aye, much like Hammell scratching his head(literally) and bemoaning the loss of cheap goals, how about you(the manager) actually take some accountability and do something about it.

Also I know it’s shouldn’t by now but honestly, watching him chuck on a clearly finished Obika and a 17 year old laddie who struggled to get a game for Stenny just to continue with his throw as many strikers on as possible when chasing a game philosophy wound me up no end. Especially when it meant Nicholson, you know a winger with some actual pace and creativity, was forced to play as a deep central midfielder to accommodate them. 

Ultimately I think Kettlewell will probably get a new contract cause those in charge will see it as the path of least resistance. This last week felt like a big one though, things like winning a big cup tie at Cappielow or holding on at Pittodrie midweek are the sort of results that generate a feel good factor and could really get doubters(like me) onside with such a decision. 

However despite slowly coming round to the idea of keeping him after our recent ‘upturn’, I must admit watching us ship 7 goals in 8 days including another 3 from set pieces has me feeling like we’re back to square one. 

Yup. Its the subs/in game management for me that appear to be his biggest flaw. They never seem to impact the game positively and seem overly complicated at times.

Yesterday Vargas was clearly causing Devine problems down that side, so I could understand putting SOD on for better defensive cover (ironic that this was the source of the second goal) but we could have gone flat back 4 at that point and pushed Nicholson out wide. That way even a "finished" Obika might have had some relevance on the field once Vale had run his race. Our formation at the end was just mental and you could see that the second goal was coming as a result. 

The minute you see Mugabi being pushed up front, it all appears a bit desperate.

[Handsome_Devil]

St J duly lost today so that's another fraction towards safety. County probably regret most this weekend.

A Rangers/St M/Livingston treble on Saturday will hopefully set us up nicely for an outside chance Sunday then dive winnable games from the last six to the split.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Miller's da probably told him to miss.

[dinnae-punt-it]

5 hours ago, well fan for life said:

He's not very good at any role in midfield. We've tried him as a 6 where he is miles off it defensively and when we're sticking him as a 10 he always picks the wrong option when in a promising position.

Kind of feels like an AI generated bottom 6 Scottish Football midfielder. Runs about a lot, offers f**k all constructive.

I like to call home Harry ‘Close But Not Quite’ Paton. I’ve never seen one player get into good positions to either make a telling pass, ride a tackle or have a meaningful shot on goal, but f**k it up almost every time. He grinds my gears. 

[capt_oats]

10 hours ago, Swello said:

I don't know if there is such a thing as specialist defensive coaching in Scottish fitba - but I think we need to invent it if not as we can't continue the way things are and the current coaching team simply aren't fixing anything.

Thinking about this it reminded me of Kettlewell's comment on a podcast (maybe Open Goal?) back when he got the job along the lines of he felt that we were understaffed.

It kind of makes me wonder if this is still an issue - I know we promoted Ricky Foster to replace Archibald's short stint in the LDC role and I know we've had Clarkson in the dug out most games but given his actual job is Head of Academy you wonder if we're either short or asking people to double up.

Either way, we definitely feel lighter in the coaching department than we were when either Robinson or Alexander were at the club.

In fact @Handsome_Devil's comment about the stat Alexander threw out about not conceding from set pieces feels especially relevant in that respect.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

For me Paton should be basically first back up. Probably the first incoming sub most weeks for whichever one of the midfield four is flagging/struggling.

['WellDel]

14 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

For me Paton should be basically first back up. Probably the first incoming sub most weeks for whichever one of the midfield four is flagging/struggling.

Agreed. He is a decent bench option at our level, never a nailed on starter. Can't get my head around Kettlewell's hard-on for him at all. 

[Allroy for Prez]

7 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Miller's da probably told him to miss.

It was actually a really poor effort. He could’ve also taken it much further before needing to shoot. 

[MurrayWell]

15 minutes ago, Allroy for Prez said:

It was actually a really poor effort. He could’ve also taken it much further before needing to shoot. 

Not so sure about that, think he knew the defender was catching him if he took it in further, tried to catch Clark out with a neat finish, never worked out but if it does everyone's praising his inventiveness.  

[joewarkfanclub]

41 minutes ago, MurrayWell said:

Not so sure about that, think he knew the defender was catching him if he took it in further, tried to catch Clark out with a neat finish, never worked out but if it does everyone's praising his inventiveness.  

Agreed 

If he slots it everyone is praising his maturity and calmness.

He didnt, so his inexperience is highlighted.

He will learn from it 

[RandomGuy.]

On 04/02/2024 at 23:56, YassinMoutaouakil said:

What was the Gannon situation again? Did he even have a contract?

 

On 05/02/2024 at 08:31, Handsome_Devil said:

Offered but unsigned was the suggestion.