Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[thisGRAEME]

Honestly, I understand the concern around the lack of experience for Hammell, but the absolute fucking state of the squad is the more pressing concern for me. 

We barely even have a starting XI worth talking about, let alone squad depth to change games, and until that's resolved, you can have all the experience in the world and it won't make a bit of difference. 

Merry Christmas!

[RandomGuy.]

On 19/12/2022 at 19:58, capt_oats said:

To be clear, everything I’ve seen about Blaney looks positive eg: @gregthewellfan’s reports and @RandomGuy.’s radar but he definitely feels more of a project than someone who’s going to drop into our defence in January and sort us the f**k out.

FWIW trying something new...

Red is kind of "pish" tbh, I'm not even sure what the benchmark is yet, just that its not good. Shaded area is from bottom standard for the league to the top. Anything above the shaded area is great and probably too good for this league, yellow is far good for the division.

So aye, he seems like an ~average top flight CB. Would guess his role maybe changed between these twos seasons which sees the big aerial jump, so would be interesting to delve into that.

[Kapowzer]

If you run the numbers again @RandomGuy. for the UCL he'd be up for a Ballon d'Or

[CoF]

 

A strong vertical trajectory on this one 

[Doctor Manhattan]

57 minutes ago, CoF said:

 

A strong vertical trajectory on this one 

Nae spunk? Banksy won't be losing any sleep just yet.

[CoF]

44 minutes ago, Doctor Manhattan said:

Nae spunk? Banksy won't be losing any sleep just yet.

It’s Christmas, got to keep it family friendly. 

[eliphas]

20 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

Honestly, I understand the concern around the lack of experience for Hammell, but the absolute fucking state of the squad is the more pressing concern for me. 

We barely even have a starting XI worth talking about, let alone squad depth to change games, and until that's resolved, you can have all the experience in the world and it won't make a bit of difference. 

Merry Christmas!

100% and we won't be able to fix it all in this window either so hopefully the expectations of some of our fanbase don't expect that...

- Goalie: Kelly is more than fine.  

- Defence: We need a central defender who is, let's just say, better than the current crop. We always needed one in to play alongside another  of Lamie, Sol or Mugabi. Left back is grand if Penney sticks around. Right back is also 'fine' I'd say for now priority wise

- Midfield: We need an enforcer in the Goss position and then everyone else can fight it out for the other two spots.

- Attack: Is mostly an absolute bombsite. KVV is KVV and a first pick. McKinstry is doing well but really should be getting taken in and out the team I think.  Shields needs emptied back to the championship, Morris needs emptied back to the national league, Joe has a second chance but I get the feeling won't replicate the pre injury form.

...and that's just to get the starting 11 serviceable. 

 

 

[capt_oats]

On 24/12/2022 at 22:43, 18May1991 said:

This is where I am.
I like Hammell, I really hope he succeeds, but the management team just feels ‘too inexperienced’. I’m getting heavy Kettlewell at Ross County vibes about us. The irony of course being that he is also at our club now. 

Aye, to be clear I actually think that Hammell is doing a good job and certainly a better job than I probably expected/feared when it was being reported he was genuinely in the frame along with Valakari. I'd have my doubts as to whether Simo would have fared much better had he got the gig.

We've been *in* pretty much every game we've played this season. We've only lost 1 league game by more than a single goal and for all Friday night was a heavy boot in the baws we were in the position where we were 2-0 up. Contrary to what some might think, we're not the worst team in the league.

The flip of that is that we're 17 games into the league and since Stevie May poked the ball in with the last kick of the ball we've had Hammell coming out post-game talking about how we need to be better defensively and we'll work on it etc.

The fact that we're apparently *not* getting better defensively despite all the good work we're supposedly putting in feels like...a problem. There's a point at which that is surely a conversation that needs to be had.

On 25/12/2022 at 14:09, thisGRAEME said:

Honestly, I understand the concern around the lack of experience for Hammell, but the absolute fucking state of the squad is the more pressing concern for me. 

We barely even have a starting XI worth talking about, let alone squad depth to change games, and until that's resolved, you can have all the experience in the world and it won't make a bit of difference. 

Merry Christmas!

For avoidance of doubt I agree with all of that.

For me it's two separate conversations. The state of the squad is 100% more of an issue than the relative experience of Hammell but I suppose my concern is that there's a naivety or idealism with Hammell that could see him influencing his view of what we actually need.

By that I mean his chat about 'pathways' and not signing players for the sake of it when he got the job. Like, I'm not suggesting we revert to signing a raft of jobbers for the sake of it but it feels (to me) that there was a conscious decision to trim the squad back with a view to the mid/long term pathways and bigger picture stuff. Arguably it's biting us on the arse now we have a bunch of injuries.

I mean, it's pretty difficult to square just bringing a "couple" more players in with how obviously stretched the squad has been for months and how public Hammell has been about it as an issue.

Edited December 26, 2022 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

[eliphas]

The pathways thing is something I've been thinking about too recently. I'm bought in on the mid/ long term stuff completely but I wonder what has changed in Hammy's thinking from early season where we saw a couple of youths getting some minutes (Spiders, Mahon, Miller) vs back end of the year where that doesn't seem to be a thing and they just fill the bench. I'd half expected one of the trademarks of Hammy was going to be a semi regular youth getting some time on the pitch most games.

[capt_oats]

20 minutes ago, eliphas said:

The pathways thing is something I've been thinking about too recently. I'm bought in on the mid/ long term stuff completely but I wonder what has changed in Hammy's thinking from early season where we saw a couple of youths getting some minutes (Spiers, Mahon, Miller) vs back end of the year where that doesn't seem to be a thing and they just fill the bench. I'd half expected one of the trademarks of Hammy was going to be a semi regular youth getting some time on the pitch most games.

Aye.

Again, for clarity, I'm here for the mid/long term/big picture stuff. Absolutely.

It speaks to the point @thisGRAEME's making about depth of squad and how limited our options are to change a game when we've a clutch of actual 16 year olds on the bench to supplement Barry Maguire and Josh Morris.

I mean even Deano and Tierney are still only 21.

Edited December 26, 2022 by capt_oats

[capt_oats]

22 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

FWIW trying something new...

Red is kind of "pish" tbh, I'm not even sure what the benchmark is yet, just that its not good. Shaded area is from bottom standard for the league to the top. Anything above the shaded area is great and probably too good for this league, yellow is far good for the division.

So aye, he seems like an ~average top flight CB. Would guess his role maybe changed between these twos seasons which sees the big aerial jump, so would be interesting to delve into that.

Cheers RG.

I think Hammell's language about him in his press conference last was interesting. He gives us "competition" and he fits in our short/medium/long term plan. 

Quote

"He brings good competition straight away for a position that we're quite short in at the moment. I think he fits into the short, medium and long term plans for the club. I think there's improvement that can be made there as well."

Link:

Spoiler

Feels very much like someone we're looking at to offer cover initially and hopefully develop. Which makes sense given he essentially plays Lamie's position.

Makes me think (hope) that Blaney's a longer term project rather than the quick, short term fix we clearly fucking need.

I mean as it stands, even with Blaney in the door we're probably still light if Mugabi and Johansen are both out for any length of time since as @thisGRAEME pointed out on the other page, Paul McGinn playing centre half won't do.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

22 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

FWIW trying something new...

I've no idea if this is within your capabilities but any idea how this compares to other LOI CBs over here, like McCarthy, Cleary, Mahon etc?

[Bobby_F]

On 24/12/2022 at 19:56, Swello said:

I'm not normally a panic merchant as we've been through this (literally) more than any other team in the league and we've been in far worse positions than this - but - the most concerning thing though is that we're not totally shite ( in fact we play nice stuff at times) but we've got that habit of consistently picking up less points than we "should" and it's been like that all season so far. That tends to be the story for teams that end up in the grubber come May.

It's totally fixable (assuming we can sign an absolutely mental c**t to play in the central defence)

Aside from the opening day.

Only team to beat Saints at home this season, and we''ve had both cheeks visit.

[capt_oats]

11 minutes ago, Bobby_F said:

Aside from the opening day.

Only team to beat Saints at home this season, and we''ve had both cheeks visit.

And a thoroughly deserved win it was. With 10 men too.

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I've no idea if this is within your capabilities but any idea how this compares to other LOI CBs over here, like McCarthy, Cleary, Mahon etc?

Been wanting to make a comparison version of this chart so will do that now and see how it comes out. 

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Cheers RG.

I think Hammell's language about him in his press conference last was interesting. He gives us "competition" and he fits in our short/medium/long term plan. 

Feels very much like someone we're looking at to offer cover initially and hopefully develop. Which makes sense given he essentially plays Lamie's position.

Makes me think (hope) that Blaney's a longer term project rather than the quick, short term fix we clearly fucking need.

I mean as it stands, even with Blaney in the door we're probably still light if Mugabi and Johansen are both out for any length of time since as @thisGRAEME pointed out on the other page, Paul McGinn playing centre half won't do.

*coughs in Joe Shaughnessy*

[RandomGuy.]

3 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I've no idea if this is within your capabilities but any idea how this compares to other LOI CBs over here, like McCarthy, Cleary, Mahon etc?

I'll put it in spoilers since most folk probably hate seeing these.

 

Spoiler

Shaded area is ~Scottish Premiership level. Above it means you're likely to standout and can play at a higher level, below means you'll likely struggle.

Annoyingly I've not got Irish data from 2019 so McCarthy is from his St Mirren games (plus this season at Barnsley in League One). Its "league adjusted" so, in theory, their performances should be around the same level even after moving division if they play a similar role. Possibly worth looking at Blaneys last score v McCarthys first, as thats how McCarty performed in his first Scottish season? Looks decent for Blaney that way, really.

 

Cleary is Dundalk until his 21/22 marker, which is with us. Hes obviously back in Ireland already though.

 

Just one season for Mahon, due to not being able to go further back than 2020 for Ireland. Hes been stuck in our stands since joining and I've a 450+ minute cut off so no data since he joined us.

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by RandomGuy.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

*coughs in Joe Shaughnessy*

Aye. That feels so wildly obvious in terms of us needing an experienced, reliable right-sided centre back and St Mirren having apparently packed his bags and left them at reception for him to collect.

It's an idea that was floated on this thread earlier in the season and it got a pretty lukewarm reception (and as everyone knows this thread dictates transfer policy at the club).  I'm not sure if circumstances have changed folks thoughts in that respect.

As others have said, it feels like a pre-injury Peter Hartley or Tam Aldred being dropped into our back four would change things massively.

A captain, leader, legend type would be nice and the fact that we cut Juhani Ojala loose on deadline day but didn't replace him still feels slightly weird (whether there was a deal in the works that fell over IDK).

Tbqh, I still need to be convinced that Hammell actually sees possible solutions to what we need right now because a development project from the LOI definitely doesn't feel like it and there's a chance we're looking at the fine margins and thinking things will "click" or whatever.

Basically...

(Narrator: it was not fine)

Edited December 26, 2022 by capt_oats

[eliphas]

The Ojala release felt to me like that was reducing the centre backs to the number we wanted more than anything.

Lamie, Sol, Mugabi, McGinley (shudder) also able to play there.

In the other timeline, what happened is Lamie didn't get a second chance re sign, Ojala got jettisoned and we signed a big b*****d leader in the defence. 

Also, in case you wondered, Robinson came back as manager,  Jordan Jones is our best player and Mark O'Hara is still at the club winning the beep test but being told he's not good enough by 90% of our support. The steak pies are good too.

Edited December 26, 2022 by eliphas