Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[djchapsticks]

14 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

I said you're going to have a reckoning like we did back then, to assume otherwise I agree is delusional.

Ours at the time were mental fuelled by a host of craziness both in our boardroom and with digital TV which is a different age.

Let's set a date in the diary for 2030 and see who gets to whip out the "told you so".

'A reckoning' 

Go on then, put your cards on the table - what exactly does this 'reckoning' we're hurtling head-on towards look like?

Or are you just using deliberately vague wording so any downturn in our on field product (which is very likely at some point in the next 6 years) can be framed as a 'gotcha'?

[Vietnam91]

St Mirren fan takes over another thread because someone made a criticism ..... Aberdeen's new manager .... boom. Other teams match threads not involving St Mirren ... boom. It's a sad recurring pattern

Nothing mentioned about on field performance. And its not a cop out not to indulge you, a recognition you'd be at this all day back and forth.

Away and dig out your passport, enjoy your day in the sun and stay classy.

[djchapsticks]

16 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

St Mirren fan takes over another thread because someone made a criticism ..... Aberdeen's new manager .... boom. Other teams match threads not involving St Mirren ... boom. It's a sad recurring pattern

Nothing mentioned about on field performance. And its not a cop out not to indulge you, a recognition you'd be at this all day back and forth.

Away and dig out your passport, enjoy your day in the sun and stay classy.

Jesus mate. I only asked you to at least partially quantify some of the shite you were talking. 

Glad it's nothing to do with on-field performances though and you reckon we're hurtling towards a financial disaster in the next few seasons, so at least you've 100% nailed your colours to the mast and outing yourself as totally clueless.

Enjoy your night.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

12 hours ago, capt_oats said:

I mean, I don't know one way or another and it's pretty pointless re-litigating Hammell-ball, everyone is scarred enough by the experience the first time round, but I have a degree of sympathy to the extent that we're kind having to reappraise what a development 'pathway' actually looks like now.

For years we were probably looking at integrating Academy players into the first team when they hit 18-ish whereas given how the landscape has changed with PL academies hoovering up talent we're having to find a way to get 16-17 year olds in and around the first team in a meaningful way. To all intents and purposes it was while he was in that bracket that we were bouncing Johnston around on loan (and of course there was Covid hitting).

I mentioned it at the time but rather than find a way to involve Johnston in the first team alongside SOD and McGinn (as Kettlewell did successfully) he opted to just loan him out (again). Which, don't get me wrong, is his prerogative - but it also felt quite instructive.

He was older by a margin but it was notable that Dean Cornelius' minutes dropped under Hammell compared to both Alexander and Kettlewell (he averaged 76.6 mins per game under Grezza, 64.1 mins pg under Ketts but dropped to only 41.8 mins pg under Hammell)

It's entirely hypothetical but if Hammell was thinking that Johnston still needed regular football to develop and was risk averse to it being with us then that's kind of a luxury that unfortunately we don't seem to have now. I guess a parallel of sorts is Turnbull, who although he didn't go out on loan, Robinson purposely held back making him a first team regular because he felt he needed to learn the 'free stuff', same with Campbell who made his debut at 18 under McGhee.

I can't remember who mentioned this whether it was McGhee, Robinson or Craigan but we apparently made a conscious decision to hold Campbell back after his first start where he ran the show against Accies rather than put pressure on him in a relegation scrap.

Given how Robinson handled Turnbull, hypothetically, would we expect that we'd have seen Lennon Miller playing as much as he has if he were still the manager? I don't know but I kind of suspect not.

Either way with Johnston you could say we fumbled things by not having a development pathway in place for him or you could also say that our being risk-averse cost us. In fact, both are probably true.

A lot of valid points here.

If I remember correctly, Max signed pro with us in the summer of 2020, making his debut in February 2021. I'm not sure if he signed a three-year deal with us then, or signed extensions along the way, but you would think that we had learned our lesson from Jake Hastie and David Turnbull, who both made their breakthroughs to the first team with less than a year left on their deals. If you are sending someone out on loan for our benefit, surely you make sure they're signed up longer than their loan term before doing so. Going from Cove Rangers to Sturm Graz in 6 months without a transfer fee, is a definite bad look for the club. Would he have signed a three-year deal put in front of him before going out on loan? Quite possibly.

I would say that Alexander probably takes a good portion of the blame too. He was trying his best to force SOD out the club by running with McGinn as first choice and Johnston as second, but obviously didn't get to hang around to see that through. Although you do also wonder if Johnston would be at Sturm Graz now if he had come into Alexander's system and not been allowed out of his own half. I imagine Hammell was trying to create room in the squad for his own additions and only sent Johnston out on loan because he had a surplus in that position and he would have been the easiest to loan out.

The comparison with Robinson / Kettlewell and Hastie & Turnbull / Miller is interesting. For Hastie, I think Elliott Frear getting injured in the Ross County cup game is a sliding doors moment for his bank account. For Turnbull, there's probably a convincing argument both ways. If he comes into the first team and scores 15 in his first season, you could argue he's been exposed to the first team at the right time. On the other hand, some might argue that if he's come into the first team and scored 15 goals he should have been in it sooner. That said, him being a regular the season before, fighting with Rose and McHugh for second balls probably wouldn't have been a worthwhile introduction. 

As you say, the demographic has massively changed, we don't get the luxury these days of a player of Turnbull's ilk becoming a regular at 19. Players getting snapped up before then plays a part, but I still think to an extent, the lack of anyone 18 - 21 on our fringes is still playing catchup from COVID. Lennon Miller has already played an abnormal amount of football for a player of his age. A number of factors come into that - the new demographic of the youth team, the fact he is a sellable asset and also the fact that he just looks ready - he's got a build and maturity beyond his years. I think if we weren't against the clock to get a transfer fee for him, we might use him slightly more sparingly for the sake of his development, but the club needs to look after itself. 

To compare the two, my gut instinct would be that Robinson would have used Miller at 16 / 17 in the environment he had to work with, a lot more sparingly. However, I would also say that Kettlewell, in the environment he is working with, would have used Turnbull at 16 / 17 a lot more sparingly, if at all yet. I think Miller's physical readiness plays a massive part in how prominent he has been. 

[StAndrew7]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Players getting snapped up before then plays a part, but I still think to an extent, the lack of anyone 18 - 21 on our fringes is still playing catchup from COVID. Lennon Miller has already played an abnormal amount of football for a player of his age. A number of factors come into that - the new demographic of the youth team, the fact he is a sellable asset and also the fact that he just looks ready - he's got a build and maturity beyond his years. I think if we weren't against the clock to get a transfer fee for him, we might use him slightly more sparingly for the sake of his development, but the club needs to look after itself. 

I think part of the missing 18-21 bracket is also that Kettlewell didn't think any of them were good enough to contribute meaningfully on the park, so punted all of them; he said as much in his comments. I also have to agree that COVID played its part there. It wasn't exactly easy for the club to arrange development loans and I think that's shown in the gap we've got in terms of "experienced" youth players who are in their late teens/early 20s.

Edited April 25 by StAndrew7

[thisGRAEME]

48 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

As you say, the demographic has massively changed, we don't get the luxury these days of a player of Turnbull's ilk becoming a regular at 19. Players getting snapped up before then plays a part, but I still think to an extent, the lack of anyone 18 - 21 on our fringes is still playing catchup from COVID. Lennon Miller has already played an abnormal amount of football for a player of his age. A number of factors come into that - the new demographic of the youth team, the fact he is a sellable asset and also the fact that he just looks ready - he's got a build and maturity beyond his years. I think if we weren't against the clock to get a transfer fee for him, we might use him slightly more sparingly for the sake of his development, but the club needs to look after itself. 

To compare the two, my gut instinct would be that Robinson would have used Miller at 16 / 17 in the environment he had to work with, a lot more sparingly. However, I would also say that Kettlewell, in the environment he is working with, would have used Turnbull at 16 / 17 a lot more sparingly, if at all yet. I think Miller's physical readiness plays a massive part in how prominent he has been. 

I suppose this is where it's important that the club makes it clear that actually; we're better for your development. That demographic has been a constant for the last decade, in that time we've seen guys like Ben Hall, Robbie Leitch (Who can forget that saga), Hastie, Rice, probably some others I forget. None of whom have come close to what Turnbull has achieved either in minutes nor triumphs.

The Turnbull and Miller examples (And I suppose Johnston as well now) are the best of these, where it is made abundantly clear to young players that yes; there's better money elsewhere, there's other opportunities at bigger clubs, but the chances of you playing regularly are slim. You are good enough here to be a first-team regular, and your next move is one to another club where you'll play.

McAlear and Rice took moves straight to another youth team/another team and are they better for it? Probably not. Were they good enough to contribute anyway? A question that doesn't really have an answer, but I suspect that Rice in particular would be better served standing next to Lennon Miller on a Saturday than he is sitting in the stand for 30 weeks a year.

[capt_oats]

30 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I suppose this is where it's important that the club makes it clear that actually; we're better for your development. That demographic has been a constant for the last decade, in that time we've seen guys like Ben Hall, Robbie Leitch (Who can forget that saga), Hastie, Rice, probably some others I forget. None of whom have come close to what Turnbull has achieved either in minutes nor triumphs.

The Turnbull and Miller examples (And I suppose Johnston as well now) are the best of these, where it is made abundantly clear to young players that yes; there's better money elsewhere, there's other opportunities at bigger clubs, but the chances of you playing regularly are slim. You are good enough here to be a first-team regular, and your next move is one to another club where you'll play.

McAlear and Rice took moves straight to another youth team/another team and are they better for it? Probably not. Were they good enough to contribute anyway? A question that doesn't really have an answer, but I suspect that Rice in particular would be better served standing next to Lennon Miller on a Saturday than he is sitting in the stand for 30 weeks a year.

The interesting thing with McAlear was that it was implied that he'd told us he wouldn't be signing a new deal - so we went ahead and accepted whatever it was Norwich were offering. He was 17 when we accepted the deal.

Quote

“We had high hopes for Reece. He was getting closer and closer and indeed, played several first-team friendly matches during pre-season. We had positive conversations with the player, his family and his representatives about extending his stay.

“However, it was clear this was an opportunity Reece wanted to explore and probably would’ve explored, when his contract expired at the end of the season, had we not managed to agree a deal with Norwich now."

Link

Related to Rice, I noticed this yesterday.

In other news, Season Tickets.

[thisGRAEME]

12 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

The interesting thing with McAlear was that it was implied that he'd told us he wouldn't be signing a new deal - so we went ahead and accepted whatever it was Norwich were offering. He was 17 when we accepted the deal.

Genuinely just realised Reece McAlear is currently 22 years old, which feels impossibly young. Lol. He's an odd one, as he felt like the obvious next one up following Turnbull's inevitable departure, and we obviously rated him, but a couple of Championship spells aside, not much to go on.

Freezing prices is decent like. Still pricey, but fair play.

[Handsome_Devil]

As much as you'd never voluntarily lose any individual young player who might be the next big thing, the broad practice that we'll now inevitably lose some before they play in the XI isn't nearly as bad as made out. Essentially we've pocketed huge amounts of cash for a bunch of guys who didn't make it...

Would they have made it if they'd stayed? Maybe, who knows. But think of it as balancing risk - yes, if we can keep that brilliant 16-year-old till he's 20, we might make millions. But junior football is full of one-time brilliant 16-year-olds who turned out to be worth hee haw. Banking a bit of cash early is fine.

The Rangers stat re Rice is mental...I can understand the temptation to go to England at that age or even the OF a bit older...but jumping ship to them at that age, to them, nah.

No doubt the club will be milking it royally in public and behind the scenes.

Edited April 25 by Handsome_Devil

[Swello]

53 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I suppose this is where it's important that the club makes it clear that actually; we're better for your development. That demographic has been a constant for the last decade, in that time we've seen guys like Ben Hall, Robbie Leitch (Who can forget that saga), Hastie, Rice, probably some others I forget. None of whom have come close to what Turnbull has achieved either in minutes nor triumphs.

The Turnbull and Miller examples (And I suppose Johnston as well now) are the best of these, where it is made abundantly clear to young players that yes; there's better money elsewhere, there's other opportunities at bigger clubs, but the chances of you playing regularly are slim. You are good enough here to be a first-team regular, and your next move is one to another club where you'll play.

McAlear and Rice took moves straight to another youth team/another team and are they better for it? Probably not. Were they good enough to contribute anyway? A question that doesn't really have an answer, but I suspect that Rice in particular would be better served standing next to Lennon Miller on a Saturday than he is sitting in the stand for 30 weeks a year.

I think this is spot on. You're better to move as a Turnbull, Johnston or Wee Al with a track record in the bank which allows you to actually get a first team game somewhere.

We're more than decent at getting young players to the point they can play first team football (with us) and we can get that type of player a decent move when the time comes- but the record of the players that have moved with little or no first team experience is pretty stark in comparison. 

[capt_oats]

Can I just say, last year's season ticket video got a fair amount of pushback (probably not helped by the hike in price) but I really like this season's.

Well played everyone.

Edited April 25 by capt_oats

[well fan for life]

1 minute ago, capt_oats said:

Can I just say, last year's season ticket video got a fair amount of pushback (probably not helped by the hike in price) but I really like this season's.

Well played everyone.

The extended shot of Kettlewell near enough on his hands and knees after Shaw's miss vs Hibs shows that they really captured the mood of the support imo. 

[Handsome_Devil]

6 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Can I just say, last year's season ticket video got a fair amount of pushback (probably not helped by the hike in price) but I really like this season's.

Well played everyone.

Aye, not bad at all although I do wish for a tiny bit of variation they'd change the most Scottish man in the world voiceover (does he have an exclusive contract with us? and tone down the 'we got gubbed with the steelworks 20 years ago...' intro.

[Swello]

8 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

The extended shot of Kettlewell near enough on his hands and knees after Shaw's miss vs Hibs shows that they really captured the mood of the support imo. 

They could just have gone for 50 sequential shots of punters mouthing "fer fucks sake Shaw" and put it to music.

[capt_oats]

Quote

"Strength is often defined by a number of things in life. It can be how many times someone has got up after being knocked down. It can be continuing their journey no matter the fear that falls on their shoulders and it's the despair and difficulty that we all face at some point in life."

I've just realised that the script at the start is erm...echoing Friday Night Lights. And I for one am absolutely here for it.

Quote

"Every man at some point in his life is gonna lose a battle. He's gonna fight and he's gonna lose. But what makes him a man, is that in the midst of that battle he does not lose himself."

Quote

"Life is so very fragile. We are all vulnerable. And we will all, at some point in our lives, fall. We will all fall. We must carry this in our hearts... that what we have is special. That it can be taken from us... and that when it is taken from us, we will be tested. We will be tested to our very souls. It is these times, this pain that allows us to look inside ourselves"

Clear eyes, full hearts...

Texas forever.

Edited April 25 by capt_oats

[Busta Nut]

I know I say it every time but I LOVE Friday Night Lights

[Handsome_Devil]

Just scrolled through the screeds of text we published with the season tickets, few thoughts.

Interesting we emphasised fan owned club again/still.

Also interesting to freeze prices having previously said we're in danger of losing touch with peers.

And either Kettlewell wrote his bit himself or the comms guy really hit the right tone of how he sounds.

[thisGRAEME]

43 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

I know I say it every time but I LOVE Friday Night Lights

Mud Bowl >>>>

Seasons 4 + 5 tho. Perfect.

[dezz]

48 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

And either Kettlewell wrote his bit himself or the comms guy really hit the right tone of how he sounds.

thought exactly the same myself. The opening paragraph is pure Ketts. 

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Just scrolled through the screeds of text we published with the season tickets, few thoughts.

Interesting we emphasised fan owned club again/still.

Also interesting to freeze prices having previously said we're in danger of losing touch with peers.

And either Kettlewell wrote his bit himself or the comms guy really hit the right tone of how he sounds.

Aye. This feels very on the nose.

I see it's been *liked* and re-posted by Barmack as well. He's liked Dee's post about the ST video too.

Although he's also 'liked' a Tweet by one of the many Motherwell Twitter accounts I have on mute and I've just cringed myself to death when I saw the content.

Edited April 25 by capt_oats