Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

No it doesn’t, shut up. Stricter immigration controls drives down wages and conditions as precarious migrant workers can’t organise for fear of deportation.

 

They can't organise anyway as they just get sacked and replaced. 

Also the fact that migrant workers need to organise itself proves that full sectors have abandoned hiring UK workers because it's too expensive. 

Edit the idea of FoM allowing migrant workers to organise is a bad joke and the exact opposite of what has happened over the past 20 years.

Edited September 23, 2019 by Detournement

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

FFS if you’re going to play act as a leftist then don’t lead your critiques of the EU (which deserves to be slagged for a multitude of reasons) with the fact it lets workers move around.

I'm not play acting as anything. Clearly freedom of movement benefits capital over labour. 

If you think that individual rights are more important than class struggle then liberalism is the ideology for you. 

[NotThePars]

I'm not play acting as anything. Clearly freedom of movement benefits capital over labour. 
If you think that individual rights are more important than class struggle then liberalism is the ideology for you. 

Nativist bollocks. You need to switch off Tucker Carlson, mate.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Well, maybe if the EU hadn't spent the last 3 years acting like a bitter husband who's wife is leaving him, and maybe if Remainiacs hadn't spent the last 3 years making it a battle for Brexit to happen at all, then maybe the government might have been able to do a bit more forward planning. (Although whether Theresa the Jellyfish could even plan a piss-up in a brewery is open to question).

You've got the roles reversed.

The only ones being arses have been HM Government.

If May had ignored the tail wagging the dog of the ERG she could easily have got a deal that both Parliament and the majority of voters could have supported.

The tyranny of the majority means that not only have Remain voters been ignored but also a sizeable chunk of Leave voters who wanted a soft Brexit deal.

Even if it was a simple Yes/No vote I would bet my bottom dollar that both No Deal and May's shite deal would lose.

[Detournement]

Just now, NotThePars said:

 

Nativist bollocks. You need to switch off Tucker Carlson, mate.

 

I don't watch American TV. 

Accepting neoliberal practices because you see everything as a dichotomy and don't want hold the same position as Farage is just idiotic. 

Go and read John Berger's A Seventh Man and tell me it's nativist to be opposed to exploiting migrant labour. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It drives down wages and conditions and worsens the housing crisis and strain on services.

Bollocks.

[Pet Jeden]

51 minutes ago, Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo said:

His wife is acting like an utter arsehole, to be fair. I'm genuinely surprised at some of the concessions they have given. The undemocratic backstop, for example, is an incredible relaxation of the rules. 

The backstop was undeniably a big relaxation. It basically said that the UK (or NI only) would forever remain under rules decided and adjudicated by the EU -unless and until the EU decided it was happy with the means of protecting the single market and avoiding a hard border. It was a de facto recognition that tariff free access to UK markets is worth more to the EU than the UK's annual contribution to EU budgets.

[Pet Jeden]

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

You've got the roles reversed.

The only ones being arses have been HM Government.

If May had ignored the tail wagging the dog of the ERG she could easily have got a deal that both Parliament and the majority of voters could have supported.

The tyranny of the majority means that not only have Remain voters been ignored but also a sizeable chunk of Leave voters who wanted a soft Brexit deal.

Even if it was a simple Yes/No vote I would bet my bottom dollar that both No Deal and May's shite deal would lose.

"The tyranny of the majority" ? Whit?

Are you going to whinge about the tyranny of the majority if Corbyn wins a majority and implements socialist policies? Or if SNP win an indyref2 and proceed to independence?

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

The backstop was undeniably a big relaxation. It basically said that the UK (or NI only) would forever remain under rules decided and adjudicated by the EU -unless and until the EU decided it was happy with the means of protecting the single market and avoiding a hard border. It was a de facto recognition that tariff free access to UK markets is worth more to the EU than the UK's annual contribution to EU budgets.

How does that square with your bitter husband analogy? Massive concession, but our 'red lines' won't allow it. We're the ones not meeting in the middle. The 'forever' bit isn't the case either. It's only a part of the Withdrawal Agreement which is the beginning of the negtiations, not the end. And anyway, it can be avoided as all we need to do is come up with the arrangements that the Leave campaign has been guaranteeing were available since before the referendum. 

The Backstop bogeyman was an invention of the No Dealers - if it wasn't that part of the WA it would have been something else that became the sticking point.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Well, maybe if the EU hadn't spent the last 3 years acting like a bitter husband who's wife is leaving him, and maybe if Remainiacs hadn't spent the last 3 years making it a battle for Brexit to happen at all, then maybe the government might have been able to do a bit more forward planning. (Although whether Theresa the Jellyfish could even plan a piss-up in a brewery is open to question).

No it highlights just how absolutely out of their depth the UK government is.

[welshbairn]

30 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

The backstop was undeniably a big relaxation. It basically said that the UK (or NI only) would forever remain under rules decided and adjudicated by the EU -unless and until the EU decided it was happy with the means of protecting the single market and avoiding a hard border. It was a de facto recognition that tariff free access to UK markets is worth more to the EU than the UK's annual contribution to EU budgets.

It would have entailed the UK having full access to the single market without paying a penny towards running it, and without one of the main pillars, freedom of movement. It was proposed by the UK government and a massive concession by the EU, and accepted on both sides that it would only be used as an absolutely last resort if all trade negotiations had failed, to protect the Belfast Agreement. It was a red herring used by the ERG and the deluded DUP to push for a no deal brexit, something that the DUP are belatedly having second thoughts on.

Edited September 23, 2019 by welshbairn

[NotThePars]

I don't watch American TV. 
Accepting neoliberal practices because you see everything as a dichotomy and don't want hold the same position as Farage is just idiotic. 
Go and read John Berger's A Seventh Man and tell me it's nativist to be opposed to exploiting migrant labour. 

I really think you need to go back and reread John Berger if you think his resolution to the exploitation of migrant labour would be to strengthen immigration laws and make the position of immigrants even more precarious.

[git-intae-thum]

39 minutes ago, MixuFixit said:

I want FoM so I can go on the dole in Saint Tropez and I will fight anyone who stands in the way of this to the death.

 

 

The dream of many

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

Once the Post Brexit Conservatives get the minimum wage to f**k I'm sure we'll see a golden age of wage rises.  

[doulikefish]

Them shorter worker hours will oh so sweet for the many

Once the Post Brexit Conservatives get the minimum wage to f**k I'm sure we'll see a golden age of wage rises.  

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I really think you need to go back and reread John Berger if you think his resolution to the exploitation of migrant labour would be to strengthen immigration laws and make the position of immigrants even more precarious.

 

The position of EU migrant workers isn't precarious though. They can stay in the UK or go and work elsewhere in the EU. 

It's disingenuous to conflate the issue of EU FoM migrants and people from under developed nations who come to the UK. 

I don't know if you have read A Seventh Man but Berger is scathing of economies that rely on exploiting migrant workers and is clear that the experience is necessarily alienating for the workers and destructive for their home communities. 

 

[NotThePars]

Just now, Detournement said:

The position of EU migrant workers isn't precarious though. They can stay in the UK or go and work elsewhere in the EU. 

It's disingenuous to conflate the issue of EU FoM migrants and people from under developed nations who come to the UK. 

I don't know if you have read A Seventh Man but Berger is scathing of economies that rely on exploiting migrant workers and is clear that the experience is necessarily alienating for the workers and destructive for their home communities. 

 

 

I've read through it ages ago and a few others on the list that Verso published (ironically, given the nature of your argument, called "No Walls, No Borders") and I'm sorry but your conclusion is indistinguishable from Paul Nuttall. Nobody's arguing in favour of the EU here just pointing out that freedom of movement is literally one of the few unequivocally good things about it.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

A timely reminder that H_B is a fucking moron.

[Detournement]

15 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I've read through it ages ago and a few others on the list that Verso published (ironically, given the nature of your argument, called "No Walls, No Borders") and I'm sorry but your conclusion is indistinguishable from Paul Nuttall. Nobody's arguing in favour of the EU here just pointing out that freedom of movement is literally one of the few unequivocally good things about it.

I'm looking at my copy just now and Berger explicitly states that migrant labour "slow down wages increases". (P141 in my copy)

I believe that FoM primarily exists to strengthen capital over labour. On page 122-130 of my copy Berger explains that migrant labour is an essential factor in reproducing class hierarchies via the social division of labour.

 

[Granny Danger]

29 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

A timely reminder that people who respond to  H_B are fucking morons.

FTFY