bendan Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: I don't think its that hard to work out tbh, and it isn't really their fault I don't think it's hard to work out why Labour have struggled post referendum, but that's because they allowed a large part of their natural constituency to be seduced by Farage and Johnson. The wonder really to me is that when it was the Tories who were in danger of being ripped apart by Europe, *both* Labour and the Lib Dems have simultaneously managed to completely mess up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 29 minutes ago, bendan said: Political historians will look back in wonder at how Brexit was an absolute car crash for Labour and the Lib Dems. Shouldn't be too hard for them to work out that so many traditional labour voters in the North of England voted for Brexit, then subsequently for Boris with his catchy 3 word slogan, because of their dislike and distrust of all immigrants - no matter from where they came, or for how long they have been here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendan Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: How could they have reasonably stopped them getting seduced? They weren't in a position to break up Facebook. They couldn't get young people out to vote because they were completely and utterly uninspiring. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 They and all the remainer parties, including the Tory leadership, could have put out a positive message about the benefits of the EU instead of just project fear 2.0 about leaving. The Tories in particular could have made a big show about putting the concessions they won from the EU about controlling immigration into effect, instead of thinking it would cost too much, why bother, it's not a problem anyway. The Remain side's smug arrogance and over confidence about the innate rational pragmatism of the British people fucked it for everyone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Andrew Neil has lost it and is retweeting bot accounts. The next stage is #lockherup tweets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) Cameron's waving his ridiculous 'I got everything I asked for in reforming the EU' bit of paper around was indeed an act of arrogance. Rather than arguing that those areas of the EU which do still need reform is easier to do from the inside, and therefore a case for Remain, but no,...he had it all sorted out. Of course the right wing press didn't expose the story of EU clampdowns on offshore tax havens as that would have turned the spotlight on Johnson and Rees-Mogg in particular. If they had been properly seen to be personally benefiting from Brexit, the result may have been different. Rather their ilk can now continue to squirrel away cash in the said tax havens free of EU scrutiny. The Guardian, in fairness made the real reason for Brexit clear 2 years ago: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/24/no-deal-brexit-poorer-jacob-rees-mogg-dividend https://lloydhardy.com/news/Jacob_Rees_Mogg_Makes_Billions_From_No_Deal_Brexit/ On the point of Labour's approach-they should have abstained on the vote-better to be accused of 'risking' no deal (when the Tories have enough to pass it anyway), then being on the end of the car crash when it all comes tumbling down, with the Tories able to say 'you voted for it as well' A 'proper' Labour leader during the whole debate could indeed have talked up the benefits of going after tax avoidance as part of the EU, and the money which would be saved as a result, in an argument for Remain. Edited December 28, 2020 by Jedi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Jedi said: Cameron's waving his ridiculous 'I got everything I asked for in reforming the EU' bit of paper around was indeed an act of arrogance. Don't remember him doing anything like that. One of the EU top bods was incredulous that he did nothing to sell it, he'd been given big concessions and he did nothing with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) He did say that he was satisfied with the concessions he had 'won' though, which then enabled him to back Remain. You are right that he then didn't do enough to promote said concessions in favour of a stronger Remain argument, believing the job was 'done'. Edited December 28, 2020 by Jedi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 The_Welcher's Europhile and staunch credentials taking a massive hit here. Siding with Farage to own the tartan gonks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said: Labour needed someone young to the left of the pseudo-Tory Blairites who could articulate a modern pro-European Remain orientated left wing agenda in which the EU helps to close down all the offshore tax havens post Panama Papers freeing up more revenue to end austerity and fund left of centre policies. Don't blame immigrants blame the tax-dodging elite that ran the banks that needed the bailouts. Instead, they got a Sinn Fein and Hamas sympathising geriatric crank that wanted to leave the EU to pursue a 1970s insular hard left agenda and actively helped derail any attempt to secure a second referendum or EEA type outcome. The Lib Dems had already fatally compromised themselves by being in coalition with David Cameron when the completely avoidable Brexit referendum was held. hahahahahahahaha absolutely zero chance of that ever happening. the reason Corbyn didn't sell it is because it's total fantasy. the EU spent most of the 2010's imposing austerity on any country that even threatened to upset austerity politics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 When will the public enquiry into Johnson and Rees-Moggs hedge fund managers betting on Brexit happen? Presumably the 12th of never. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, G51 said: hahahahahahahaha absolutely zero chance of that ever happening. the reason Corbyn didn't sell it is because it's total fantasy. the EU spent most of the 2010's imposing austerity on any country that even threatened to upset austerity politics. Can you explain how the EU "imposed" austerity? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: Can you explain how the EU "imposed" austerity? Well given that the troika consisted of the EC, the ECB and the IMF, I don't think this one is particularly hard to work out? What was forced on Cyprus, Greece, Ireland and Portugal has been fairly well documented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, G51 said: What was forced on Cyprus, Greece, Ireland and Portugal has been fairly well documented. So how was it done? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G51 Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Just now, Baxter Parp said: So how was it done? Through "Economic Adjustment Programmes" that were enforced in exchange for loans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 1 hour ago, bendan said: They couldn't get young people out to vote because they were completely and utterly uninspiring. Indeed. Blame Corbyn and his gullibly misplaced, in a Charlie Kennedy style, on one hand this and on the other hand that delivery. It's quite astonishing how the labour party got it so wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, G51 said: Through "Economic Adjustment Programmes" that were enforced in exchange for loans. So four countries having to jump through hoops in order to get vital loans is "imposing austerity on any country that even threatened to upset austerity politics", is it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, MixuFruit said: You must remember the various intrustive controls on peoples lives in Ireland that came as conditions of refinancing mortgages and so on which were ultimately being underwritten by the ECB. No mobile phone, no internet direct debits etc. They've bounced back very quickly but it was pretty mental for a short period. Greece saw multiple rounds of cuts to pensions and benefits as conditions for getting bailout money. Sure I remember but Ireland is one of the richest countries in Europe now. It's f**k all to do with "imposing austerity" because of a threat to austerity politics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 Just now, MixuFruit said: ... yes? And how is it imposed now? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted December 28, 2020 Share Posted December 28, 2020 The Greek economy was a total mess during that time. They still weren’t crazy enough to vote to leave the EU though. What’s Greek for gammon and taking back control? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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