Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Buddist Monk]

As I say, when the right wing press and lying politicians whipped up a frenzy amongst the illiterate racists down South (and some up here too!) it was all about it being best for the country. As it's become abundantly clear that isn't the case the same people are wiping their hands of it saying it's everyone else's job to clean up their mess.

Brexit is a fucking betrayal, and economic suicide, yet the only thing left is to pop down the Winchester, grab a pint and wait for it all to blow over.

I seriously think the only way the idiots will learn is if they are taught a stern lesson by fucking the country. It's not what I want but it's about the only route left.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[zidane's child]

Barnier saying that a deal is possible within the next 8 weeks will just add to the seeth levels of Rees Mogg, Bone, Davis et al.

[John Lambies Doos]

Barnier saying that a deal is possible within the next 8 weeks will just add to the seeth levels of Rees Mogg, Bone, Davis et al.

The deal in 8 weeks will be that Article 50 is extended. Nap

[Granny Danger]

At this stage I cannot see any deal that can be approved by the EU and May’s supporters and that will get backing in Parliament.

The SNP need to be more vocal on a second Brexit vote too.

 

[Paco]

I seriously think the only way the idiots will learn is if they are taught a stern lesson by fucking the country. It's not what I want but it's about the only route left.

The thing is, at this stage all that constitutes a ‘successful Brexit’ is food in the supermarkets and a semi-functional NHS. ‘Told you it would be fine, scaremongers’. That’s now where the bar is due to the Brexit-led media sensationalising everything.

Never mind economic growth, GDP, trade, currency, jobs, most of which have already tanked and will continue to do so after we leave. They’re just words on the news. If fat Les from Burnley can still get six cans and his heartburn medication, Brexit is a success.

[Colkitto]

11 hours ago, zidane's child said:

Barnier saying that a deal is possible within the next 8 weeks will just add to the seeth levels of Rees Mogg, Bone, Davis et al.

Barnier basically helping May out as he knows she's dead in the water and desperate. More chance of a good deal for the EU when dealing with desperate people.

[harry94]

15 hours ago, Buddist Monk said:

As I say, when the right wing press and lying politicians whipped up a frenzy amongst the illiterate racists down South (and some up here too!) it was all about it being best for the country. As it's become abundantly clear that isn't the case the same people are wiping their hands of it saying it's everyone else's job to clean up their mess.

Brexit is a fucking betrayal, and economic suicide, yet the only thing left is to pop down the Winchester, grab a pint and wait for it all to blow over.

I seriously think the only way the idiots will learn is if they are taught a stern lesson by fucking the country. It's not what I want but it's about the only route left.

I think a big issue is that we seem to have spent years focusing on this ten-word answer politics.  Experts who have spent years studying complicated problems at the highest level are simply overruled because all bat shit right wing ideas are 'common sense'.

I'm with you that maybe the best case scenario is for the clusterfuck to expose these frauds and maybe even collapse the voting system in parliament so we have something more proportional and government can function with sensible compromise rather than having to appease the batshit mentalists on the backbenches who have just arrived from the 18th century.

I think leaving the EU in itself was a bad decision but it's pretty worrying how the whole process seems to have been so easily hijacked by the extremists.

[Buddist Monk]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

I think leaving the EU in itself was a bad decision but it's pretty worrying how the whole process seems to have been so easily hijacked by the extremists.

It always was hijacked by extremists though. We've had years of lies being published with impunity by the right wing press and allowed lies and facile comments to perpetuate the argument.  We became the 5th largest trading nation in the world thanks to our involvement in the EU, yet somehow that gets turned into the EU being a negative to our success. The £350m claim is another example, or that the EU is unelected - that from people like Farage who was fucking elected to the European Parliament and willing to take the money while claiming it wastes money (oh, the irony). Not his first contradiction, he complained of people not speaking English on the train while the man was married to a fucking German who he spoke German with. I mean really.. anyway, less Farage, his faults are all too easy to expose.

At Westminster, the Conservative Party is and always has been riven with disharmony on Europe and to allow them to be the ones in charge of getting a settlement is like asking the ghost of Jimmy Saville to look after your kids. Don't think I lay the blame entirely at their door though, we had a euro-sceptic leader of the Labour party who nominally claimed to be supporting Remain but did such a dreadfully unbelievable job that nobody took him seriously and instead of standing up to the lies and bullshit he kept a low profile because he didn't want to lose seats in the febrile North of England where xenophobia and racism has been ratcheted up by malign forces. I would have a lot more respect for Corbyn if he actually had the guts to stand up and say I don't believe in the EU, which he doesn't and never has, rather than meekly trying to shuffle his way through the whole thing. Both parties have fucked over the country.

Who does it hurt in the long run? Not the Gove's, the Johnson's or the Mogg's. These people are insulated from financial fallout. It's an ideological fight for them. They don't care if the country is worse off so long as their little Albion rules the waves once more.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[GoTeamGaz]

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

I'm with you that maybe the best case scenario is for the clusterfuck to expose these frauds and maybe even collapse the voting system in parliament so we have something more proportional and government can function with sensible compromise rather than having to appease the batshit mentalists on the backbenches who have just arrived from the 18th century.

To be fair, we were given the opportunity to do just that if we wanted it but too many people wanted to teach that nasty Nick Clegg a lesson because the media said so and so voted against it or didn't bother to show up. That sure showed him.

The reason we don't currently have proportional representation at Westminster today is because we're all a bunch of goons.

Edited September 11, 2018 by GoTeamGaz

[Granny Danger]

34 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

To be fair, we were given the opportunity to do just that if we wanted it but too many people wanted to teach that nasty Nick Clegg a lesson because the media said so and so voted against it or didn't bother to show up. That sure showed him.

The reason we don't currently have proportional representation at Westminster today is because we're all a bunch of goons.

I am in favour of PR and it’s bizarre and very hypocritical that it’s used in just about every election we have except for Westminster.

However given that one of the two main beneficiaries would have to vote against retaining FPTP I don’t see it being introduced any time soon.

 

[welshbairn]

52 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

To be fair, we were given the opportunity to do just that if we wanted it but too many people wanted to teach that nasty Nick Clegg a lesson because the media said so and so voted against it or didn't bother to show up. That sure showed him.

The reason we don't currently have proportional representation at Westminster today is because we're all a bunch of goons.

The pro PR people ran the worst campaign I can remember. It was also a half arsed kind of PR that didn't get people motivated. 

[harry94]

1 hour ago, Buddist Monk said:

It always was hijacked by extremists though. We've had years of lies being published with impunity by the right wing press and allowed lies and facile comments to perpetuate the argument.  We became the 5th largest trading nation in the world thanks to our involvement in the EU, yet somehow that gets turned into the EU being a negative to our success. The £350m claim is another example, or that the EU is unelected - that from people like Farage who was fucking elected to the European Parliament and willing to take the money while claiming it wastes money (oh, the irony). Not his first contradiction, he complained of people not speaking English on the train while the man was married to a fucking German who he spoke German with. I mean really.. anyway, less Farage, his faults are all too easy to expose.

At Westminster, the Conservative Party is and always has been riven with disharmony on Europe and to allow them to be the ones in charge of getting a settlement is like asking the ghost of Jimmy Saville to look after your kids. Don't think I lay the blame entirely at their door though, we had a euro-sceptic leader of the Labour party who nominally claimed to be supporting Remain but did such a dreadfully unbelievable job that nobody took him seriously and instead of standing up to the lies and bullshit he kept a low profile because he didn't want to lose seats in the febrile North of England where xenophobia and racism has been ratcheted up by malign forces. I would have a lot more respect for Corbyn if he actually had the guts to stand up and say I don't believe in the EU, which he doesn't and never has, rather than meekly trying to shuffle his way through the whole thing. Both parties have fucked over the country.

Who does it hurt in the long run? Not the Gove's, the Johnson's or the Mogg's. These people are insulated from financial fallout. It's an ideological fight for them. They don't care if the country is worse off so long as their little Albion rules the waves once more.

 

 

 

The thing is though, the process of government wasn't held by the extremists. The government was obviously concerned about the damage these people could do to their electoral prospects but triggering article 50 when they did was all down to them.

You are probably right and the Conservative Party were always going to be paralysed by this issue with it also coming at the worst possible time but I think that the bulk of Tory MPs would have voted for a transitional arrangement including EEA from the start had that been the governments position and I think that the rest of the chamber would have easily covered the losses to rebels. Corbyn wasn't exactly flavour of the month with Labour MPs at the time. It seems to me that they've tried this appeasement strategy just to salvage their electoral chances/party unity and it's not had any impact in doin that or simply hasn't been necessary.

Edited September 11, 2018 by harry94

[Buddist Monk]

40 minutes ago, harry94 said:

The thing is though, the process of government wasn't held by the extremists. The government was obviously concerned about the damage these people could do to their electoral prospects but triggering article 50 when they did was all down to them.

Look at the Conservative Party since we joined the Europe, long before Maastricht and Major's "b*****ds", it was always riven allowing narrow factions to control the direction of power. All parties have that sort of Achilles Heel it has to be said, just that this is a party in power (just, propped up by bigots and homophobes) trying to get legislation through on the very subject it's riven on. The only "sensible thing" when Article 50 was triggered was to create a government of national unity as it's clear that the Brexit vote while partisan is not necessarily split entirely down party lines. Let's not fudge the issue, leaving Europe and the damage it will do to us now and for future generations while not equatable to a war situation it's one of the most serious things to happen in living memory.

Would that unity government have moved things on better than this ghost ship of a tory party? Who knows, however there would have been a consensus large enough to carry any votes through parliament. Perhaps for us remainers it's for the best that didn't happen as I believe we would be much closer to exit than we are now.

40 minutes ago, harry94 said:

Corbyn wasn't exactly flavour of the month with Labour MPs at the time. It seems to me that they've tried this appeasement strategy just to salvage their electoral chances/party unity and it's not had any impact in doin that or simply hasn't been necessary.

Corbyn has been a fucking disgrace. For a man who plays hard and loose with principle politics, he absolutely shat the bed when he refused to properly back remain or leave, he just "beiged" it in the hope that the tories would be more damaged then they were. The snap election exposed May's weakness but even more it showed Corbyn's weakness too.

Ultimately there is no real way back now. While technically we could cancel Article 50, all the opt-outs and rebates that the UK had built up over the decades are no longer in force and if we were to stay we'd need to renegotiate those and it's pretty damned obvious that isn't going to happen. The whole "we should have a second ref" has been built up from people realising their mistake when they either voted for Brexit based on ignorance and lies or didn't vote because they didn't understand it. I turn on the TV and I see young people in their 20s going, "I voted for it, but I don't really understand it, what is it?" That infuriates me.

The only solution I can see is for Scotland to join the EU as an independent country. The problem then is that we are a conservative (with a small c) country who would rather stick with the status quo than cause a problem. I am all for the will of the people, but I find it incredible that these same people can't see the blindingly obvious. As an independent nation in the EU we would have more far control over our own affairs than we do as part of the UK, regardless whether it stays in or not, and when we are pulled pillar to post by the racist and xenophobic nature of a much bigger dominating nation then you have to ask yourself, where is our pride?

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[Ned Nederlander]

Boris Johnson says May's Brexit plan 'worse than status quo' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45483679

 

Harsh IMO, some of their older stuff was excellent!

[Cerberus]

23 minutes ago, Ned Nederlander said:

Boris Johnson says May's Brexit plan 'worse than status quo' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45483679

 

Harsh IMO, some of their older stuff was excellent!

The BBC quoting Economists for Free Trade (formerly known as Economists for Brexit) as a viable source.

What's next Breitbart?

 

[Granny Danger]

31 minutes ago, Ned Nederlander said:

Boris Johnson says May's Brexit plan 'worse than status quo' - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45483679

 

Harsh IMO, some of their older stuff was excellent!

The Brexiteers can adopt ‘Down Down’ as their theme song if they get their way.

 

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, harry94 said:

 

You are probably right and the Conservative Party were always going to be paralysed by this issue with it also coming at the worst possible time but I think that the bulk of Tory MPs would have voted for a transitional arrangement including EEA from the start had that been the governments position and I think that the rest of the chamber would have easily covered the losses to rebels. Corbyn wasn't exactly flavour of the month with Labour MPs at the time. It seems to me that they've tried this appeasement strategy just to salvage their electoral chances/party unity and it's not had any impact in doin that or simply hasn't been necessary.

EEA means continued Freedom Of Movement (which is what the result was about). There's no chance Tory MPs would go for that.

It's No Deal or undermine the four freedoms. The decision is Merkel's to make.

[Detournement]

2 hours ago, Buddist Monk said:

 As an independent nation in the EU we would have more far control over our own affairs than we do as part of the UK, regardless whether it stays in or not, and when we are pulled pillar to post by the racist and xenophobic nature of a much bigger dominating nation then you have to ask yourself, where is our pride?

 

With the SNP plan to use Sterling and have the BoE set our monetary policy what we would have wouldn't amount to independence.

[Buddist Monk]

26 minutes ago, Detournement said:

With the SNP plan to use Sterling and have the BoE set our monetary policy what we would have wouldn't amount to independence.

Ok, so first, Sterling isn't English. It's British and represents the merger of the English and Scottish pounds as part of the act of union.

Secondly, the BoE wouldn't set out monetary policy, it would control the interest rates. This is sort of like pegging a currency to a more stable one. This is done throughout the world. Many countries peg their currency to the dollar for example. Even with a pegged currency we would still have far more control over our affairs, whether that is in or out of the EU. For example foreign affairs. So while Blair was sucking up to Gaddafi we had no direct line to the (then) Libyan government so when the request for dialogue with them about al-Megrahi was made it was ignored by the Westminster Foreign Office in case it interfered with the oil deal Blair's government was making. When the CFP was agreed by the UK they specifically denied the Scottish government involvement in that, despite that being a devolved power. So to recap, you are not correct in that the BoE would set our policy, but you are right that it would have an effect on it, but only in certain areas.

Thirdly, I think the idea of using Sterling was a bad idea and left the SNP open to this sort of argument. Especially to those with a limited grasp of fiscal policy - not that I am suggesting you are but during the Indy Ref and even today with GERS figures it's clear some people with very loud voices have very little understanding. I would have preferred we went down the route of a Scottish pound initially pegged to Sterling or even the Euro, it just needs that to begin with to allow the changeover not to be taken advantage of by carpet baggers. After some time this would then be lifted and we can decide whether we wish to retain the Scottish pound or move to the Euro. This is pretty much what Slovakia did when Czechoslovakia split, they brought back the Koruna. They then later agreed to adopt the Euro.

So, in short I feel that the SNP took the wrong option with the currency during Indy Ref. They should have been more bold and seen how it has worked for other similar sized countries in similar situations. I believe they took the option in order to stop the *autistic_screeching* from the financial institutions. These are the same institutions who fucked us all over during the financial crisis of course.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Buddist Monk

[welshbairn]

14 minutes ago, Detournement said:

With the SNP plan to use Sterling and have the BoE set our monetary policy what we would have wouldn't amount to independence.

Short term it's the only way. There's no point in pretending that we can start from scratch ignoring market and global economics.