Oh Kez!!!

[Detournement]

4 hours ago, welshbairn said:

This court case could easily be a thread on here.

https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1110877017426354176

I'm guessing that Mr Dunlop feels like a bit of a dick.

[welshbairn]

^^^Homophobe.

[Detournement]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

Erm yes, because the likes of the Jacobins, the Paris Commune, the Bolsheviks and other standout left movements throughout history were notoriously woke and put identity politics irrelevant to the vast majority of their given society at the top of their political agenda. Leftist liberals do not actually get to define what the entire political left stands for. Not least given that your selection of transpeople as 'the most vulnerable and marginalised' group in society would be rejected by a class-centred analysis of society i.e. the form used by the vast majority of movements on the political left. 

The Jacobins ended slavery. The Paris Commune gave women equal rights and the Union Des Femmes was an integral part of it. The Bolsheviks decriminalised homosexuality.

There were no doubt some contemporaneous  permaraging reactionaries arguing that these advances were irrelevant to their given society.

 

[vikingTON]

31 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The Jacobins ended slavery. The Paris Commune gave women equal rights and the Union Des Femmes was an integral part of it. 

The Jacobins only called for an end slavery in 1794, after the massive slave revolt already controlled most of Saint Domingue, with the explicit aim of recruiting the armed slaves to drive out the British expeditionary forces there and in the rest of the Caribbean. French revolutionary governments of every stripe had failed to implement the abolition of slavery from 1789 until that point because they had quite a few other things on their plate: so no, not quite the grand and noble gesture that you were going for then. 

And that's before we even address the stupidity of comparing actual and widespread black slavery to 'bathroom rights for self-declared transpeople' as being somehow like for like matters of political and social significance. 

Quote

The Bolsheviks decriminalised homosexuality.

And then made it illegal again from 1934 until beyond the end of the Soviet Union itself. 

Quote

There were no doubt some contemporaneous  permaraging reactionaries arguing that these advances were irrelevant to their given society.

Their ranks no doubt including the vast majority of the Paris sans culottes or Latvian factory workers, who saw their interests furthered by work and bread issues rather than a ridiculous pursuit of identity politics. Hence why the successful regimes on the left didn't actually bother to do so and yet still retain their left membership card to this day, much to the rainbow-flecked fury of 21st Century liberals. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by vikingTON

[pandarilla]

The Jacobins ended slavery. The Paris Commune gave women equal rights and the Union Des Femmes was an integral part of it. The Bolsheviks decriminalised homosexuality.
There were no doubt some contemporaneous  permaraging reactionaries arguing that these advances were irrelevant to their given society.
 

It's the fact that feminists like Greer and beard are being painted as the bad guys that makes me sceptical though.

A hill to die on is absolutely what this has become.

Martina Navratilova was one of the few supportive players of the transgender tennis player in the 70s but is now seen as transphobic.

[welshbairn]

44 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

It's the fact that feminists like Greer and beard are being painted as the bad guys that makes me sceptical though.

A hill to die on is absolutely what this has become.

Martina Navratilova was one of the few supportive players of the transgender tennis player in the 70s but is now seen as transphobic.

Thing that gets me is how obsessed and wound up people like Graham Lineham and Wings get about it. It's not a huge number of people and who cares how they want to describe themselves? The number of people using it to invade female only places is tiny, and some of them are alt right types taking the pish. The sport thing is a different matter, it has to be based on biology.

Edited March 27, 2019 by welshbairn

[Savage Henry]

Thing that gets me is how obsessed and wound up people like Graham Lineham and Wings get about it. It's not a huge number of people and who cares how they want to describe themselves? The number of people using it to invade female only places is tiny, and some of them are alt right types taking the pish. The sport thing is a different matter, it has to be based on biology.

Imagine getting riled up by toilets being used by everyone? Almost like in a house.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

4 hours ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Evidence please.

They generally have a higher level of unemployment  and are less likely to be hired. Not to mention the numbers that are forced to turn to sex work.

Disproportionately more likely to be homeless, with perhaps up to 1 in 4 being homeless at some point.

AlbertKennedy_ResearchReport_FINALInteractive.pdf

lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf

These transpeople generally don't get much attention though. It's the Katelyn Jenner's, the daft middle class uni types and the alt right provocateurs who do.

[Tibbermoresaint]

13 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

They generally have a higher level of unemployment  and are less likely to be hired. Not to mention the numbers that are forced to turn to sex work.

Disproportionately more likely to be homeless, with perhaps up to 1 in 4 being homeless at some point.

AlbertKennedy_ResearchReport_FINALInteractive.pdf

lgbt_in_britain_-_trans_report_final.pdf

These transpeople generally don't get much attention though. It's the Katelyn Jenner's, the daft middle class uni types and the alt right provocateurs who do.

I'm sure that's all true but it isn't evidence that transsexuals are mainly working class. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

5 hours ago, virginton said:

There is absolutely no causal relationship between transgender and class status, thereby making the former completely and utterly irrelevant to disputes between capital and labour. In the same way that the majority of Scottish football fans being working class doesn't make this website an indispensable bastion of the left revolution. 

Yes, a section of society who face discrimination during hiring and in the workplace, 1 in 8 assaulted in the workplace and up to half who feel the need to or are forced to hide their identities.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to disputes between capital and labour then aye.

5 hours ago, virginton said:

 You quite clearly are champ, as only a left liberal would try to pass off support for a form of identity politics as being the defining feature for the entire political left.

I'm a socialist. 

Thinking that transpeople should be treated with dignity and respect, and should enjoy the same protections in and out of the workplace that everyone else has doesn't make me a liberal.

Champ.

5 hours ago, virginton said:

The political left doesn't automatically take the side of vulnerable and marginalised groups though; if your marginalisation has nothing to do with the overarching socioeconomic system then many left groups will simply file your case in the bin where it belongs.

It more often than not does though, and rightly so.

And given the high numbers of homelessness and those forced into sex work, their marginalisation has everything to do with the overarching socioeconomic system.

You think trans rights belong in the bin ? Very cool champ.

[Ira Gaines]

Some outstanding deflection away from the fact that Campbell is simply a bigot. You'd be forgiven for thinking these two are bigots as well, or at the very least determined to defend their hero where he shouldn't be defended.

[vikingTON]

19 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Yes, a section of society who face discrimination during hiring and in the workplace, 1 in 8 assaulted in the workplace and up to half who feel the need to or are forced to hide their identities.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to disputes between capital and labour then aye.

Absolutely, yes. There are plenty of practices of discrimination, bullying, harassment and violence that exist in society and in the workplace that have fundamentally nothing to do with capitalism at all. 

Quote

 

I'm a socialist. 

Thinking that transpeople should be treated with dignity and respect, and should enjoy the same protections in and out of the workplace that everyone else has doesn't make me a liberal.

Champ.

 

Thinking that your personal views on transpeople is the acid test of whether anyone can be legitimately placed on the political left or not - your claim and not mine - is the confirmation that you are in fact a left liberal. Nobody else cares as much about such relatively inconsequential, nothing issues as your gormless bunch of losers. 

Quote

It more often than not does though, and rightly so.

But not necessarily, particularly when the group in question aren't being marginalised due to their social class at all but can be found among a wide strata of the population, from corporate lawyers to the unemployed. 

Whether or not left wing groups choose incidentally to lend support to them as well has got nothing to do with liberals like you and doesn't change their ideological position on the fundamental political issues. Thanks for playing anyway. 

Quote

You think trans rights belong in the bin ? Very cool champ.

The case for a trans rights agenda within left-leaning political groups should be filed in the bin. If we were setting out a list of priorities to address in modern-day Scotland then I wouldn't put trans rights anywhere near the top 100. 

Left liberals on the other hand clearly have it within their top ten going by the amount of froth and outrage they devote to the subject. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

17 minutes ago, Principal Flutie said:

Some outstanding deflection away from the fact that Campbell is simply a bigot. You'd be forgiven for thinking these two are bigots as well, or at the very least determined to defend their hero where he shouldn't be defended.

I couldn't give a toss about Stuart Campbell champ; go back to playing with your wrestling dolls while the adults in the room are talking. 

[Detournement]

57 minutes ago, virginton said:

But not necessarily, particularly when the group in question aren't being marginalised due to their social class at all but can be found among a wide strata of the population, from corporate lawyers to the unemployed.

You can include any minority group in that argument. Obama was President so why worry about black people.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 hour ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Yes, a section of society who face discrimination during hiring and in the workplace, 1 in 8 assaulted in the workplace and up to half who feel the need to or are forced to hide their identities.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to disputes between capital and labour then aye.

How do transsexual capitalists fit into this?

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

How do transsexual capitalists fit into this?

They set their own rules.

[Detournement]

2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

How do transsexual capitalists fit into this?

How do black capitalists fit into anti racism? What a stupid question.

There is a high profile right wing, capitalist, trans women called Caitlyn Jenner who we can safely say is a horrible person while still supporting trans rights.

[vikingTON]

15 hours ago, Detournement said:

You can include any minority group in that argument. Obama was President so why worry about black people.

Hardly the best example given your equation of three hundred years of widespread black slavery with disputed transgender bathroom rights on the grand liberal scale of injustice. 

But once again, the onus is not on left-wing political movements to prove their credentials by prioritising any form of identity politics in their platform. If an individual party chooses to prioritise black civil rights in addition to bringing about socioeconomic change then it's by their free choice - just as they could choose to promote environmentalism or drug liberalisation as part of their agenda instead. Or put them on the back burner and focus their arguments entirely on the completely rotten state of neoliberal capitalism.

Only left liberals are obsessed with putting transgender rights and other totally marginal forms of identity politics at the centre of political discussion and that strategy is working out just terrifically for them all over the world right now.  

Edited March 28, 2019 by vikingTON

[NotThePars]

It's true. The 2017 Labour manifesto was just an A4 sheet of paper with "TRANS RIGHTS" written in a size 72 font. Bernie Sanders and the DSA have limited their "Medicare 4 All" program to "Gender Reassignment 4 All".

[welshbairn]

7 hours ago, virginton said:

Only left liberals are obsessed with putting transgender rights and other totally marginal forms of identity politics at the centre of political discussion and that strategy is working out just terrifically for them all over the world right now.  

Aye it's totally taken over the global MSM and not just a weirdo subsection of social media. Mainly Bristol based.

Edited March 28, 2019 by welshbairn