Juniors in the big Scottish do we deserve to be there?

[Gordon EF]

I'm all for junior teams getting into the Scottish Cup. If only so that we now have enough evidence to say the top juniors are simply not as good as L1/2 teams. You'll always get unexpected results in cups. In this season's League Cup, East Fife beat Premiership Dundee and Championship Dumbarton, then lost to L2 Forfar. Does that mean we're as good as or almost as good as Dundee or Dumbarton - absolutely not. But the junior's record against SPFL clubs is shite.

[Jack Burton]

Why is owning the ground an issue? Why are some still fixated with this notion of owning a ground? Its not an issue if you have a suitable lease arrangement in place.

The relationship between Clyde and NLC breaks down and perhaps the Colts saw an opportunity to negotiate a new lease arrangement with a landlord who requires a tenant. The Colts negotiate a good arrangement.

That's a rather obvious scenario. Surely you can see that's entirely possible?

You cannot understand the business plan behind some LL clubs so therefore you cast aspersions that something isn't right. That somehow, and even you don't know how, the SFA are propping up these clubs financially via the magical "subsidy".

What is this subsidy? Is it the same subsidy that Talbot receive for participation in the Scottish Cup?

 

There are a number of junior clubs that play out of council owned or built facilities as well. I think I might be right in saying that it is the council that will be refurbishing Holm Park for Clydebank and Yoker?

Selling Shawfield in the 30s was the worst mistake Clyde ever made. At Broadwood the only money we make is whatever comes through the gate. Any money made from the bar or pie stall goes to the council. Any money made from functions goes to the council. We also no longer permitted to park in the home car park as it is now solely for people using the council facilities like the gym. The council also converted the hospitality suites into offices so that was another revenue stream we lost.

We were paying around 80 to 100k in rent but managed negotiate that down by the Colts coming on board. We pay about 35k a year now and that entitles us to 18 games on the pitch albeit we have priority over the pitch. Any home friendlies or cup games cost us around an extra 2k per game. We also lost home advantage for the second leg of the play off final because the council had booked Broadwood out for a BMX event.

We've been at Broadwood for 20+ years now and the rent paid could have built us our own ground albeit not to the same capacity etc. However it would have meant any money generated went to the club and not the council.

[Burnie_man]

45 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Why wouldn't we budget for that? We won't have budgeted for getting further than that but it makes great financial sense to budget for what you aim to achieve. It probably has given us more money than some other opponents but it's not a season changing sum of money we're talking about here.

The article which was hailed as a "good read" on the last two pages stated that clubs would need to improve their grounds, I'm sure the guy was either the current or former head of the junior association. Is he talking shite?

On the subject of budgets, many clubs budget for worst case scenario, first round exits in any cups and bottom of the league. Operate within that budget then you cannot run into trouble, and a good chance of bonus income if you do better which can be utilised on the transfer window.

As for improving ground standards, I've long since been of the opinion the Junior Superleague clubs should conform to a basic standard, the SFA's entry level licence would be a good starting point. Many clubs are improving anyway, but some are still well below acceptable. It would come with the added bonus of putting the shitters up the SFA and its members if 30 licenced Junior clubs applied for membership[ over the next few years.

[right_said_steve]

i think all jun clubs should be invited into the early qualifying rounds of the scottish cup similar to the FA Cup 

 

don't know if they'd want to mind you

[The Moonster]

Just now, Burnie_man said:

On the subject of budgets, many clubs budget for worst case scenario, first round exits in any cups and bottom of the league. Operate within that budget then you cannot run into trouble, and a good chance of bonus income if you do better which can be utilised on the transfer window.

As for improving ground standards, I've long since been of the opinion the Junior Superleague clubs should conform to a basic standard, the SFA's entry level licence would be a good starting point. Many clubs are improving anyway, but some are still well below acceptable. It would come with the added bonus of putting the shitters up the SFA and its members if 30 licenced Junior clubs applied for membership[ over the next few years.

Well in the heady heights of the Championship, a part time side all but relegate themselves if they budget for worst case scenario. Speculate to accummulate as they say.

I sincerely hope they do apply. I doubt they will though.

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Well in the heady heights of the Championship, a part time side all but relegate themselves if they budget for worst case scenario. Speculate to accummulate as they say.

I sincerely hope they do apply. I doubt they will though.

It's a dangerous game to play financially, but hey ho it's not my problem.

I think there will be movement, it would help if the SFA got off their fat useless arses and actually engaged Junior clubs as to the benefits of licencing, and dispel many of the myths. Then again, I'm sceptical if they want to encourage an influx of Junior clubs to apply....

[LeeKRR1878]

i think all jun clubs should be invited into the early qualifying rounds of the scottish cup similar to the FA Cup 

 

don't know if they'd want to mind you

You'd have clubs who would see pros and cons to entering it. Pros would be the possible financial gain, albeit small, but could help in the way of improving facilities. Some may find it a way of giving their club more exposure and drawing more locals to come and support.

Cons for some clubs would be that some could find it a pointless cup. I know it might sound daft but if you are a club playing in the Central Division 2 you wouldn't expect to make it very far at all and would rather concentrate on their league campaign or Junior Cup.

But I might be wrong and I don't see why they couldn't test that out

[newcastle broon]

19 minutes ago, right_said_steve said:

i think all jun clubs should be invited into the early qualifying rounds of the scottish cup similar to the FA Cup 

 

don't know if they'd want to mind you

The Junior season finishes in the middle o summer bud. 

To get your wish they'd prob need to start the qualifying rounds around April of the season before  ?

 

Don't think it would fit in calendar wise  ?

[The Moonster]

21 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's a dangerous game to play financially, but hey ho it's not my problem.

I think there will be movement, it would help if the SFA got off their fat useless arses and actually engaged Junior clubs as to the benefits of licencing, and dispel many of the myths. Then again, I'm sceptical if they want to encourage an influx of Junior clubs to apply....

Have junior clubs requested an open discussion to clear these myths up? 

[vikingTON]

32 minutes ago, right_said_steve said:

i think all jun clubs should be invited into the early qualifying rounds of the scottish cup similar to the FA Cup 

If the Scottish Cup required more entrants, they'd come from the feeder leagues to the existing Lowland League setup; not from an entirely separate category of clubs that threw their toys out of the pram when the pyramid system was introduced. 

 

[LeeKRR1878]

The Junior season finishes in the middle o summer bud. 

To get your wish they'd prob need to start the qualifying rounds around April of the season before  ? [emoji3]

 

Don't think it would fit in calendar wise  ?

Hmm not true. West Premier League last league game was 28th May. Scottish Premiership last game was 21st May

[newcastle broon]

3 hours ago, fan of the juniors said:

We played a club from the Northern League in England called Shildon who won the league last season but it would bankrupt them to accept promotion & that's accepted down there where as up here they would be accused of witchcraft & burned at the stake for doing such a thing

I get what your saying (I think Durham City tried promotion a few seasons back and nearly went bankrupt and now ground share wi Consett) but certain clubs similar to Shildon can't get promoted as well because grounds are not up to the required FA criteria.

Similar northern clubs Spennymoor and Darlington to an extent are easily managing it moving up the leagues.

England is 10 times the size of Scotland pyramid wise and that's why it works doon here.

The regionalised leagues do work but certain clubs from the south (I think Bishop Stortford?) have had to travel several hundred miles away in the north leagues and vise versa. 

It's difficult getting a balance right numbers wise for potential pyramid leagues but one major stumbling block unfortunately is finance for any club. 

 

[Burnie_man]

Have junior clubs requested an open discussion to clear these myths up? 

Yeah some have, hence why some are licenced. However, given its an SFA invent to supposedly improve our game, why are they not out there promoting it and promoting it's benefits? No point to talking to Tom Johnston about it.

Some may cynically think it's because they have no interest in encouraging multiple membership applications from Junior clubs gaining a licence.

No excuse though for the SJFA not to look at it closer, but not unsurprising.

[right_said_steve]

probably because I love the romance of the FA Cup but would love to see all clubs who pay their players enter the cup at some stage of the tournament.

 

obviously I am thinking from the heart here and not the head

 

[newcastle broon]

Just now, LeeKRR1878 said:

 

Hmm not true. West Premier League last league game was 28th May. Scottish Premiership last game was 21st May

 

There's more than just the west junior league tho bud what aboot aw yer cups  ?

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

 

Yeah some have, hence why some are licenced. However, given its an SFA invent to supposedly improve our game, why are they not out there promoting it and promoting it's benefits? No point to talking to Tom Johnston about it.

Some may cynically think it's because they have no interest in encouraging multiple membership applications from Junior clubs gaining a licence.

No excuse though for the SJFA not to look at it closer, but not unsurprising.

 

So the info is there if junior clubs so wish to find it. The SFA has left the door open, why should they also need to push you to join? When they start knocking back loads of memberships then perhaps you can bemoan the SFA not encouraging junior clubs to join but they've set out the criteria and it's up to the clubs to join if they want. Do you not think it's the other way round here? Juniors don't actually want to join so point the finger at the SFA? 

[fan of the juniors]

I get what your saying (I think Durham City tried promotion a few seasons back and nearly went bankrupt and now ground share wi Consett) but certain clubs similar to Shildon can't get promoted as well because grounds are not up to the required FA criteria.

Similar northern clubs Spennymoor and Darlington to an extent are easily managing it moving up the leagues.

England is 10 times the size of Scotland pyramid wise and that's why it works doon here.

The regionalised leagues do work but certain clubs from the south (I think Bishop Stortford?) have had to travel several hundred miles away in the north leagues and vise versa. 

It's difficult getting a balance right numbers wise for potential pyramid leagues but one major stumbling block unfortunately is finance for any club. 

 

Yip they said that as well . Believe they have already stated that they won't be applying for promotion this year again if they win the league as they still won't be in the position to apply but are working hard towards it . The extra cash would come from the pot that is already there but would mean the clubs in the league , ll & hl receiving a smaller amount hence why I don't believe for a second that they want it to happen

[Burnie_man]

20 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

So the info is there if junior clubs so wish to find it. The SFA has left the door open, why should they also need to push you to join? When they start knocking back loads of memberships then perhaps you can bemoan the SFA not encouraging junior clubs to join but they've set out the criteria and it's up to the clubs to join if they want. Do you not think it's the other way round here? Juniors don't actually want to join so point the finger at the SFA? 

Erm.......even I can see that you probably have the where with all to understand that if the SFA bring something to the table that, according to them, would improve the game at all levels, then they have the obligation to go out and "sell it" to the clubs and help the sceptical ones over the line. They don't. Why is that?

Linlithgow Rose, Girvan, Bank's O'Dee are full SFA and SJFA members, with a few others working towards it.  With a bit of effort from our games governing body, there would probably be more and the pace of change in our game would increase, which is a good thing, right?

[newcastle broon]

4 minutes ago, fan of the juniors said:

 

Yip they said that as well . Believe they have already stated that they won't be applying for promotion this year again if they win the league as they still won't be in the position to apply but are working hard towards it

 

That's a wee bit different to yer burnt at stake post then.

Of the northern league clubs Morpeth are similar to Shildon and won't get promoted (not sure if their ground up to standards or just the travelling involved)  whereas South Shields have bigger ambitions to go through the leagues  ?

Yet it was only a few seasons ago South Shields were playing home games a good few miles away out at Peterlee  and struggling. 

As I stated before finance is massive at the bottom levels of the pyramid. 

[fan of the juniors]

That's a wee bit different to yer burnt at stake post then.

Of the northern league clubs Morpeth are similar to Shildon and won't get promoted (not sure if their ground up to standards or just the travelling involved)  whereas South Shields have bigger ambitions to go through the leagues  ?

Yet it was only a few seasons ago South Shields were playing home games a good few miles away out at Peterlee  and struggling. 

As I stated before finance is massive at the bottom levels of the pyramid. 

Teams up here would be with a certain Highland league club derided when they stated the fact . Personally I want my club to play at the highest level we can which at the moment we are . If another avenue opens ie a new fangled pyramid which wasn't a closed shop self preservation society that it is just now then I would hope we would have the foresight to be leading the queue for that as well . Improvements are getting made at our ground all the time .