Old Firm Colts in L2

[The Spider]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Lewis Morgan was one of those that got picked up by the Old Firm youth system. ...... supposedly he was let go for being too short

ah, another one who was caught wearing the wrong kind of jeens

[Bazil85]

Good to see news stories coming out saying the Colt idea isn't going ahead. Chris McCart has obviously came out being a bitter and defensive  saying it'll happen anyway whether clubs like it or not but I think we can just put that down to him being a petty, little man that doesn't like being told no.

Below is action I think should now happen to show that the SPFL, SFA, Celtic and Rangers are not as petty as this individual and respect the wishes of the vast majority of other team fans in this country:

• SPFL should issue a statement taking Colts completely off the table in line with fan feedback, team feedback and results of the fan survey
• Celtic and Rangers should both reiterate this and their cooperation with the will of the vast majority of club fans. Celtic and Rangers pushing this agenda would be the tail wagging the dog. Scottish football is much bigger than them 
• SFA should also issue their update to Project Brave that Colt teams will in no way form part of future discussions to improve youth development following fan feedback.

Nice to have (personally)

• I'd love to see Rangers and Celtic look at other options for where to put their Colt teams outside of Scotland. Possibly in the lower leagues of England. This would be a great way to finally get these clubs out our country. This is purely my personal preference and if the EFA or lower league English clubs didn't want this it shouldn't happen, same as it shouldn't happen up here. 

SPFL, SFA , Celtic and Rangers have a great opportunity here to show their interests are aligned with the greater good of Scottish football and not just the Green/ Blue Glasgow clubs. I sincerely hope they take it. There is a long way to go to mend relationships but the above would be a start. 

 

[afca32]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Lewis Morgan was one of those that got picked up by the Old Firm youth system. He was on the books with Rangers from 2004-2013, just as he was about to turn 17. OF argument might well be that if they had a colt side he would of been retained and developed "in house".

However I call bullshit on that theory as its based on how the player he has become, supposedly he was let go for being too short, which is something that goes right to the heart of the coaching & development of young players in this country. He would of been let go just the same, because he couldn't compete with grown men.

Yeah I did know that. It proves my point that Rangers thought Morgan was useless whereas Scott Roberts, same age and similar position and now unbale to make the bench for Annan, was worth hanging onto. Similarly at Celtic, who the f**k looked at Andy Robertson and Joe Chalmers and decided "we're going to go with the latter"? Again some dinosaur who based his decision on height no doubt.

Edited January 29, 2018 by afca32

[The Moonster]

16 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

A further logical conclusion to draw is that Chris McCart believes that this plan overall benefits Scottish football - which in one area it could if more and better players are produced to improve the national team. 

 

I would suggest you remove that wool from over your eyes.

16 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Football is a business at the top end,Celtic pour millions into youth development for very little return, they are looking for a better return the colt team is one option.
McCart knows what is lacking to take the players to the next level,i'm sure the pros and cons will get ironed out from the pilot scheme plus the effect it has on clubs.

Away and f**k yourself. If Celtic are pouring millions into their youth development and not getting the desired results then I suggest you look in the fucking mirror instead of asking the rest of Scottish football to bend over and ruin their league competition to give youth players that Rangers and Celtic have no intention of ever fucking playing a game. It's honestly fucking hilarious how many OF fans don't see how ridiculous this suggestion is.

[Karpaty]

39 minutes ago, afca32 said:

Yeah I did know that. It proves my point that Rangers thought Morgan was useless whereas Scott Roberts, same age and similar position and now unbale to make the bench for Annan, was worth hanging onto. Similarly at Celtic, who the f**k looked at Andy Robertson and Joe Chalmers and decided "we're going to go with the latter"? Again some dinosaur who based his decision on height no doubt.

Even more striking was Rangers were in League Two at the time when Robertson was on top form for Queen’s Park and they still didn’t notice him. 

For the amount of money the Old Firm invest in their youth set up’s, their return of national team standard of  players is appalling and should be looked at before any proposals of shafting the league set up.

[ian mac]

Jim gannon in today's record says league 2 isn't professional football lol he's forgotten it's only a few yrs since sevco were in it 

[Bazil85]

10 minutes ago, Karpaty said:

Even more striking was Rangers were in League Two at the time when Robertson was on top form for Queen’s Park and they still didn’t notice him. 

For the amount of money the Old Firm invest in their youth set up’s, their return of national team standard of  players is appalling and should be looked at before any proposals of shafting the league set up.

Agreed, OF return on youth has been shocking. Looking at the very strongest 11 both teams could field right now, how many players have came through their youth system? One between them? Maybe two/ three if being generous. They are miles behind other clubs who can produce half or more of their first team players. 

[gannonball]

9 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

Agreed, OF return on youth has been shocking. Looking at the very strongest 11 both teams could field right now, how many players have came through their youth system? One between them? Maybe two/ three if being generous. They are miles behind other clubs who can produce half or more of their first team players. 

 Can only speak for Celtic but we currently have 3 in the team (Macgregor,Forrest and Tierney)  with Johnston making the bench most weeks now. Ralston would have played a good few times as if he didnt get injured.For a team as good as our thats pretty decent, how many do you honestly expect Celtic to have? Rodgers has said there is talent in Scotland but its the players attitudes thats stops him from signing more scottish talent. This may be why he just doesnt chuck players in who attitude wise may not merit a chance and then think they have made it after a few appearances. I have a feeling putting some of them in league 2 and finding out they arent quite as good as they think they are may provide a reality check for them.

I can understand why lower league clubs are opposed to Colt teams but to suggest Celtic dont produce much in the way of youth is a bit silly given it has been pretty much the hardest team to get in to in Scotland since the turn of the  millenium yet off the top of my head since then McManus, Marshall, Beattie, O’Dea, Smith, Mulgrew,Miller, Maloney, Wallace have all contributed. Add in ones who didnt play much ( if at all) but we still made money are the likes of Sheridan and Feruz. We also made a few quid off the other ones so the academy can near enough pay for itself.

 

[oneteaminglasgow]

 Can only speak for Celtic but we currently have 3 in the team (Macgregor,Forrest and Tierney)  with Johnston making the bench most weeks now. Ralston would have played a good few times as if he didnt get injured.For a team as good as our thats pretty decent, how many do you honestly expect Celtic to have? Rodgers has said there is talent in Scotland but its the players attitudes thats stops him from signing more scottish talent. This may be why he just doesnt chuck players in who attitude wise may not merit a chance and then think they have made it after a few appearances. I have a feeling putting some of them in league 2 and finding out they arent quite as good as they think they are may provide a reality check for them.
I can understand why lower league clubs are opposed to Colt teams but to suggest Celtic dont produce much in the way of youth is a bit silly given it has been pretty much the hardest team to get in to in Scotland since the turn of the  millenium yet off the top of my head since then McManus, Marshall, Beattie, O’Dea, Smith, Mulgrew,Miller, Maloney, Wallace have all contributed. Add in ones who didnt play much ( if at all) but we still made money are the likes of Sheridan and Feruz. We also made a few quid off the other ones so the academy can near enough pay for itself.
 

Saying Celtic have a better team so it’s more difficult to produce players is disingenuous at best. Celtic spend many, many times what anyone else can spend on youth development, they should have the best scouting and coaching available in Scotland, and are also the biggest draw in the country. They should be able to produce better players than the rest of the clubs, and yet they consistently fail to do so.

[Bazil85]

2 minutes ago, gannonball said:

 Can only speak for Celtic but we currently have 3 in the team (Macgregor,Forrest and Tierney)  with Johnston making the bench most weeks now. Ralston would have played a good few times as if he didnt get injured.For a team as good as our thats pretty decent, how many do you honestly expect Celtic to have? Rodgers has said there is talent in Scotland but its the players attitudes thats stops him from signing more scottish talent. This may be why he just doesnt chuck players in who attitude wise may not merit a chance and then think they have made it after a few appearances. I have a feeling putting some of them in league 2 and finding out they arent quite as good as they think they are may provide a reality check for them.

I can understand why lower league clubs are opposed to Colt teams but to suggest Celtic dont produce much in the way of youth is a bit silly given it has been pretty much the hardest team to get in to in Scotland since the turn of the  millenium yet off the top of my head since then McManus, Marshall, Beattie, O’Dea, Smith, Mulgrew,Miller, Maloney, Wallace have all contributed. Add in ones who didnt play much ( if at all) but we still made money are the likes of Sheridan and Feruz. We also made a few quid off the other ones so the academy can near enough pay for itself.

 

Would McGregor and Forrest make your very strongest 11 in all honesty? The other two young boys are yet to be determined. Still got developing to do. I think that's a very poor return for a club TBH. When was the last truly class player developed by Celtic before Tierney? Also Tierney could easily go down south and fall flat like a Danny Wilson for example. 

Player attitude in Scotland is not greatly different in any of the other home nations. If a youth set-up like Celtics can't sort that out then it's on them, not the players. The reality check might be a valid point however they're still playing against part-time players that train 2/3 days a week. Do you think it's likely they'd develop to be a Forrest or McGregor? Bottom line about this as well is we need to be developing better players than Forrest, McGregor, Armstrong, Brown, Griffiths. Them and others in the Scotland squad are not good enough quality to get us to a World Cup, that's been shown at Scotland level and by Celtic in Europe. That's what our aim should be. Starting to put boys in L2 won't help that. The reality check point, I would possibly challenge with players you already loan out to L1 and L2 currently. 

Again your point about contribution of the other players. The whole point of the Colts (according to SFA Project Brave) is to improve the national team (in itself nonsense, it's to benefit Celtic and Rangers). We're talking about having to improve beyond every one of those players mentioned. Colts don't cut it IMO. 

[The Moonster]

9 minutes ago, gannonball said:

 Can only speak for Celtic but we currently have 3 in the team (Macgregor,Forrest and Tierney)  with Johnston making the bench most weeks now. Ralston would have played a good few times as if he didnt get injured.For a team as good as our thats pretty decent, how many do you honestly expect Celtic to have? Rodgers has said there is talent in Scotland but its the players attitudes thats stops him from signing more scottish talent. This may be why he just doesnt chuck players in who attitude wise may not merit a chance and then think they have made it after a few appearances. I have a feeling putting some of them in league 2 and finding out they arent quite as good as they think they are may provide a reality check for them.

I can understand why lower league clubs are opposed to Colt teams but to suggest Celtic dont produce much in the way of youth is a bit silly given it has been pretty much the hardest team to get in to in Scotland since the turn of the  millenium yet off the top of my head since then McManus, Marshall, Beattie, O’Dea, Smith, Mulgrew,Miller, Maloney, Wallace have all contributed. Add in ones who didnt play much ( if at all) but we still made money are the likes of Sheridan and Feruz. We also made a few quid off the other ones so the academy can near enough pay for itself.

 

If Celtic are capable of producing a good number of first team players from the youth team (and you argue that it would be silly to expect more could play) then why are we being asked to allow Colt sides into League 2?  You can and do produce players, so "improving the young talent and national team" is certifiable bullshit. It's just Rangers and Celtic trying to strangle the game.

[peternapper]

Would not claim to know all the ins & outs of the development league but it seems it has created some of the problem. Are players ineligible after 18 years of age, you keep hearing its purpose is to develop skills & winning or losing is not too important. It has also been said these players are not physically able to compete with older players, as far as I can see kids nowadays tend to be much bigger & many by the age of 15 are 6ft plus.  Forget the development league & get a reserve league for all ages to compete in & either sink or swim if they are full time pros they have plenty time to hone their skills in training on the park players need to be sent out to win matches first & foremost.

[gannonball]

 

 

Saying Celtic have a better team so it’s more difficult to produce players is disingenuous at best. Celtic spend many, many times what anyone else can spend on youth development, they should have the best scouting and coaching available in Scotland, and are also the biggest draw in the country. They should be able to produce better players than the rest of the clubs, and yet they consistently fail to do so.

 

The same could be said for just about every English premier league club yet we see hardly any coming through there, a lot of it though is down to them not wanting to risk throwing players in. We however do that now if they are working hard enough and have the talent. I dont think its me being disingeuous. 

 

Would McGregor and Forrest make your very strongest 11 in all honesty? The other two young boys are yet to be determined. Still got developing to do. I think that's a very poor return for a club TBH. When was the last truly class player developed by Celtic before Tierney? Also Tierney could easily go down south and fall flat like a Danny Wilson for example. 

Player attitude in Scotland is not greatly different in any of the other home nations. If a youth set-up like Celtics can't sort that out then it's on them, not the players. The reality check might be a valid point however they're still playing against part-time players that train 2/3 days a week. Do you think it's likely they'd develop to be a Forrest or McGregor? Bottom line about this as well is we need to be developing better players than Forrest, McGregor, Armstrong, Brown, Griffiths. Them and others in the Scotland squad are not good enough quality to get us to a World Cup, that's been shown at Scotland level and by Celtic in Europe. That's what our aim should be. Starting to put boys in L2 won't help that. 

Again your point about contribution of the other players. The whole point of the Colts (according to SFA Project Brave) is to improve the national team (in itself nonsense, it's to benefit Celtic and Rangers). We're talking about having to improve beyond every one of those players mentioned. Colts don't cut it IMO. 

Forrest has been one of our best players this season so yes. Macgregor has played over 30 games already this season sommust be there abouts. These are strange points to be arguing as they are clear talents. Im not arguing about whether colts is a good idea as a whole I was just disputing somebody wrongly claiming we dont produce players.

If Celtic are capable of producing a good number of first team players from the youth team (and you argue that it would be silly to expect more could play) then why are we being asked to allow Colt sides into League 2?  You can and do produce players, so "improving the young talent and national team" is certifiable bullshit. It's just Rangers and Celtic trying to strangle the game.

I think the idea is getting them ready for the Celtic team in a higher league by playing proper competitive football. Whoever you are quoting certainly isn’t me so  I would take your seethe eleswhere. Like I said Im not arguing whether colts is good for Scottish as whole it was mainly somebody saying that we dont produce youth players.

 

 

[The Moonster]

8 minutes ago, gannonball said:

I think the idea is getting them ready for the Celtic team in a higher league by playing proper competitive football. Whoever you are quoting certainly isn’t me so  I would take your seethe eleswhere. Like I said Im not arguing whether colts is good for Scottish as whole it was mainly somebody saying that we dont produce youth players.

I hadn't said you said that directly, I was quoting your club.

You're arguing that Celtic are good at bringing youth players through - I'm asking you why there is a need for this proposal if Celtic are already doing a good job. You have Celtic FC saying they can't get enough players through the youth teams and their fans arguing that they're really good at bringing through youth players. Which is it?

[Dundee Hibernian]

The colts argument often turns to the reason for the proposal, the Old Firm say this should be done to improve the national team, the opponents state such a plan will only benefit two teams, the proposers.

 

I think that misses the mark: the reason for the proposal is to maintain a presence in Scotland should the two cheeks ever get their desired escape route to a more lucrative league system elsewhere. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Dundee Hibernian

[gannonball]

If Celtic are capable of producing a good number of first team players from the youth team (and you argue that it would be silly to expect more could play) then why are we being asked to allow Colt sides into League 2?  You can and do produce players, so "improving the young talent and national team" is certifiable bullshit. It's just Rangers and Celtic trying to strangle the game.

Im saying players will have more of a chance of getting in to the team if they are able to play competitive football at a young age whilst being trained and monitored by their own staff.
How much of a benefit this is to the national team is very much debateable and if it pisses off lower league fans that much it really isnt worth the risk.
The main benefit I would say is to the players who in the past stay on at Celtic too long with a couple of sub apperances if their lucky to their name. They are usually about 20/21 and leave with little professional game time, chances of them making it to a Scotland team are pretty slim but at least they would now have a seasons worth of senior football to their name. This Doesn't really benefit Scottish football as a whole just them and the next club they are going to. Not really worth the furore this is causing for me.

[The Moonster]

4 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Im saying players will have more of a chance of getting in to the team if they are able to play competitive football at a young age whilst being trained and monitored by their own staff.

This is literally already in place and has been happening for years now. It's called a Development Loan. Both clubs and media seem to be completely ignoring that point.

[Pride Of The Clyde]

Colts teams playing in league 2 will  not be competitive football , it is basically just friendlies every week. What benefit are youngsters going to get from that, surely developement loans to clubs L2 and above would be more beneficial.

[Ira Gaines]

Loan deals also allow these players to play at a higher level in actual competitive games where the league places actually mean something. Which is surely more beneficial than playing meaningless training games against the bottom tier sides.

[scot-gcar709]

23 minutes ago, Randy Giles said:

Loan deals also allow these players to play at a higher level in actual competitive games where the league places actually mean something. Which is surely more beneficial than playing meaningless training games against the bottom tier sides.

They can also play against better opposition as the loans aren't restricted to league 2 which if the whole purpose is to develop players to compete nationally should be more productive for them?