New clubs in the East of Scotland

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

Given the above where does the East Region Junior League fit into all of this, as it straddles both sides of the line of Latitude, and apparently (?) the SFA will not allow a winner of the play-off between the North and South sections to be promoted to Tier 5. Also, at present there are teams from south of the line of Latitude which play in the North section. 

One of the previous make it up as they went along SFA responses, was if a North of Tay team won the LL playoff they could choose what league they wanted. Or something like that.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 People have extrapolated from there as to what they think should also happen on that basis in tier 5 and 6

Hmmm...

The Lowland League advert stating that line for applications.

John Greenhorn quote from 2018 during the mass moves saying a North of Tay club had enquired but told no.

Think it was Carnoustie were asked if they were applying in 2018 and said in a Twitter response no due to geography.

Time of the Highland League being included in the pyramid saying it know extended from Wick to Dundee.

[LongTimeLurker]

None of that contradicts what I wrote.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, LongTimeLurker said:

None of that contradicts what I wrote.

You said people extrapolated from the rule over clubs being relegated the SPFL. Yet there's 3 different league bodies enforcing the rule. 

The SJFA is meant to have boundaries between the 3 regions. Where is that explicitly stated out of curiosity?

[LongTimeLurker]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

You said people extrapolated from the rule over clubs being relegated the SPFL. Yet there's 3 different league bodies enforcing the rule. 

The SJFA is meant to have boundaries between the 3 regions. Where is that explicitly stated out of curiosity?

You have completely missed my point and the boundaries that apply in the SJFA are irrelevant.

[Burnie_man]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Hmmm...

The Lowland League advert stating that line for applications.

John Greenhorn quote from 2018 during the mass moves saying a North of Tay club had enquired but told no.

Think it was Carnoustie were asked if they were applying in 2018 and said in a Twitter response no due to geography.

Time of the Highland League being included in the pyramid saying it know extended from Wick to Dundee.

As I said, the HL/LL follow the SPFL regulation (agreed between the 3 of them?), the EoS in turn follow the LL.  If they didn't, then you could potentially find two clubs from the same town playing in different regions.

Sometimes, some things are so obvious that they don't need formalised.  Then again, maybe the time has come that they should.

Anyway, there's no evidence that Luncarty or anyone else have applied or are intending to, so it's a bit a pointless argument for now.

[LongTimeLurker]

What some people seem to find difficult to grasp is that the SFA are ultimately the body in charge of the pyramid rather than the HL, LL and EoS. When there are no explicitly stated rules in place like the LL playoff one that the EoS have been able to use to block ERSJFA entry at tier 6, then the pyramid is still very much a work in progress. People in charge of leagues have been extrapolating beyond the rules that are actually in place into areas that have yet to actually be formally settled through the PWG under the auspices of the SFA.

Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

What some people seem to find difficult to grasp is that the SFA are ultimately the body in charge of the pyramid rather than the HL, LL and EoS. When there are no explicitly stated rules in place like the LL playoff one that the EoS have been able to use to block ERSJFA entry at tier 6, then the pyramid is still very much a work in progress. People in charge of leagues have been extrapolating beyond the rules that are actually in place into areas that have yet to actually be formally settled through the PWG under the auspices of the SFA.

What some people fail to grasp is that the leagues, and only the leagues, decide who is eligible for membership.   Clearly the SPFL, HL and LL are in agreement over the dividing line. Nobody has "extrapolated beyond the rules", they follow the bleeding obvious when it comes to membership applications.

Some people need to grasp the reality that the SFA don't have the power to impose rules and regulations onto leagues, that should have been learned back in the summer, Petrie and Maxwell learned the hard way.  Changes come through negotiation and agreement. The SFA don't run leagues.

Why does it bother you so much?

[LongTimeLurker]

7 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

What some people fail to grasp is that the leagues, and only the leagues, decide who is eligible for membership...

Ignoring the bizarre question at the end, where has that even been disputed in this thread? I have been pointing out that the HL:LL boundary line is not an issue in terms of Luncarty if the EoS wants to take them into membership because the explicitly stated rules on that only relates to team 42 in an SPFL context.  You are actually supporting my argument with that. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Jason King]

New year, same old tired "arguments" from a poster who was hideously wrong last year but who I guess is doubling down in the hope he's right this year so he can say "telt ye" come August.

 

[Burnie_man]

6 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Ignoring the bizarre question at the end, where has that even been disputed in this thread? I have been pointing out that the HL:LL boundary line is not an issue in terms of Luncarty if the EoS wants to take them into membership because the explicitly stated rules on that only relates to team 42 in an SPFL context.  You are actually supporting my argument with that. 

It's a fairly simple question, it clearly get's your goat and the EoS always seem to be in your sights, I'm curious as to why.

I don't support your argument in the slightest, Luncarty are a unique case and their situation doesn't apply to any other club.  However, if you think otherwise you crack on.

[LongTimeLurker]

If the HL:LL boundary is fixed based on a line of latitude in terms of the registered home grounds of clubs as is the case in the SPFL constitution with team 42 and is also applicable in this case then the EoS will not be able to add Luncarty as a member. If they can as I have been arguing, they could also add Forfar West End and Brechin Vics as well, if they so desired, because as you state eligibility for membership based on geograpgy still appears to be something that the league determines at this point not the SFA. There is nothing unique about Luncarty because there is no loophole for proximity in the team 42 rule that is in place for the SPFL, if it is applicable.

Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

As things stand there is only a rule for where team 42 goes. There is nothing in writing in the LL constitution that I can find that says anything about teams having to be based south of 56,4513N in terms of their registered home ground. Hence why the SFA would state at the end of last season that there has been confusion on this point and why the SFA don't necessarily see this as a problem where ERSJFA clubs are concerned.

In a couple of my posts to you last year (which you didn't respond to), my advice was NOT to add boundary complications and ERJFA (Tayside) issues into the current PWG deliberations, because this may (will ?) delay the primary issue of getting some/all of the West Juniors into the pyramid. Moving the boundary requires not only SLL & EoSL approval, but it also involves agreement by the SPFL, HFL, and the SFA itself.

It is probably necessary to review the above outstanding issues, but only as a 2nd phase, perhaps for 2021/22.  The options which the West Juniors are considering, may not result in an overall agreement, and there then becomes a risk of a split. Surely you don't want the West issue dragging on for another year, whilst  the 'bigger picture', is further argued, and rules/constitutions are proposed for alteration, or rejected. There isn't time if changes are to be introduced for  2020/21, so why do you continue to pursue the 'Tayside' issue now ?  We are  now in January.

 

[Burnie_man]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If the HL:LL boundary is fixed based on a line of latitude in terms of the registered home grounds of clubs as is the case in the SPFL constitution with team 42 and is also applicable in this case then the EoS will not be able to add Luncarty as a member. If they can as I have been arguing, they could also add Forfar West End and Brechin Vics as well, if they so desired, because as you state eligibility for membership appears to be something that the league determines at this point not the SFA. There is nothing unique about Luncarty because there is no loophole for proximity in the team 42 rule that is in place for the SPFL, if it is applicable.

And as I have repeated several times, Luncarty are a unique case and a bit of common sense should be applied if they want to join the EoS.   That said, there is no guarantee they would be accepted, it's for the EoS members to decide.

Clubs from Forfar and Brechin would likely be refused for obvious reasons, they are nowhere near the boundary line and are deep into HL territory.

[Guest]

They really aren't LL areas though. The sfa didn't know their own policies, process and cut off points in any of the meetings they attended. So forgive me for not buying into what you are saying.

 

You can't only use one set if minutes to present your argument lurker.

 

 

[Ray Patterson]

The big issue in this is the Tayside clubs.

Realistically, if the LL has three feeder leagues, EOS, West Region and the SoS; then the Highland League should also have three feeders: North Juniors, Tayside Juniors and the NCL. Although like in South the quality of those three feeder leagues may not be exactly equal. Albeit they could do something such as have no mandatory promotion between tier 6 and 5 in the North until they divisions were all set. It also gives the added bonus of if/when Brechin, Dundee or Montrose get relegated from the SPFL/go bust again they could play one or two ambitious sides - poss. Broughty Athletic for example.

The immediate solution could be to let the boundary clubs such as Luncarty play in the EoS for now and if a Tayside Senior League appears at a later point, then they will have to move into that when the time comes.

[FairWeatherFan]

Why don't some of the leagues have set boundary lines? 

1) The pyramid is a work in progress.

2) Throughout the enter process the leagues have had their independence respected and not forced into something without an agreement.

There's only one situation where a league is forced to accept a club. That's through the SPFL pyramid playoff. There it is definitively written who goes where.

Outside of the SPFL pyramid playoff the HFL is a membership organization that can accept or decline applications by a vote of its members.

Outside of the SPFL pyramid playoff the LL has become a closed ecosystem with the agreement to accept candidate clubs from specific leagues. It doesn't need a boundary in its constitution as it is only taking clubs from the SPFL, EoSFL and SoSFL.

The EoSFL and SoSFL are only forced to accept clubs from the LL playoff. This is also agreed amongst the 3 leagues so can see flexibility to who goes where. Otherwise the EoSFL & SoSFL are independent membership organizations that can accept or decline who they like.

Say there was a definitive boundary for the EoSFL. Syngenta as an example apply, get rejected. Then Syngenta go and complain to the SFA saying they've been denied access to the pyramid and licensing. Creates a fuss that nobody wants. Has the SFA imposing standards on all leagues.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

 

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Why don't some of the leagues have set boundary lines? 

1) The pyramid is a work in progress.

2) Throughout the enter process the leagues have had their independence respected and not forced into something without an agreement.

There's only one situation where a league is forced to accept a club. That's through the SPFL pyramid playoff. There it is definitively written who goes where.

Outside of the SPFL pyramid playoff the HFL is a membership organization that can accept or decline applications by a vote of its members.

Outside of the SPFL pyramid playoff the LL has become a closed ecosystem with the agreement to accept candidate clubs from specific leagues. It doesn't need a boundary in its constitution as it is only taking clubs from the SPFL, EoSFL and SoSFL.

The EoSFL and SoSFL are only forced to accept clubs from the LL playoff. This is also agreed amongst the 3 leagues so can see flexibility to who goes where. Otherwise the EoSFL & SoSFL are independent membership organizations that can accept or decline who they like.

Say there was a definitive boundary for the EoSFL. Syngenta as an example apply, get rejected. Then Syngenta go and complain to the SFA saying they've been denied access to the pyramid and licensing. Creates a fuss that nobody wants. Has the SFA imposing standards on all leagues.

^^^that's more or less my understanding of where things stand as well. The other thing that people need to grasp, but more on the juniors subforum than on here, is that in practical terms the EoS have an effective veto over what happens next in terms of who gets to be a feeder to the LL, since the LL, SFA, EoS and SoS all have to agree to any changes on the format of the playoff to enter the LL. That means that the EoS can easily prevent another east feeder from emerging at tier 6 and don't need to take Tayside clubs, if they don't want to. That will be their decision based on what changes to the LL playoff they'll willingly sign off on. Not something that's being rigidly mandated from above based on what the SPFL and SFA agreed to get the team 42 playoff up and running. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Guest]

  ^^^that's more or less my understanding of where things stand as well. The other thing that people need to grasp, but more on the juniors subforum than on here, is that in practical terms the EoS have an effective veto over what happens next in terms of who gets to be a feeder to the LL, since the LL, SFA, EoS and SoS all have to agree to any changes on the format of the playoff to enter the LL. That means that the EoS can easily prevent another east feeder from emerging at tier 6 and don't need to take Tayside clubs, if they don't want to. That will be their decision based on what changes to the LL playoff they'll willingly sign off on. Not something that's being rigidly mandated from above based on what the SPFL and SFA agreed to get the team 42 playoff up and running. 

 

And the eosfl haven't vetoed anything as yet lurker. Are you still driving this narrative? 

The eos, quite rightly, refused to accept the ersjfa operating at the same level in the structure....the ersjfa clubs can join the eos quite easily - East set up sorted. They offered to help set up a wos league for the west junior clubs..... That isn't a veto, that's using common sense for me.

 

The problem isnt that there is a boundary line, the problem is that because the sjfa now want to play the pyramid game they want everyone who set up the pyramid to change everything about their structures to suit the sjfa..... An association that turned their nose up at the mere suggestion of a senior footballing pyramid just 5 years ago.

 

There has never been anything said about the LL/HL boundary line since their inception.....until now.

 

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

4 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

And the eosfl haven't vetoed anything ... The eos, quite rightly, refused to accept the ersjfa operating...

An interesting example of the concept of cognotive dissonance. Beyond that I couldn't give a flying one about the rights and wrongs of the petty blazer politics involved. Unfortunately, because the SFA Board are only taking a passive role in all of this beyond setting up the PWG to facilitate progress, it is highly likely that that the various blazers involved will find a way to prevent a fully functional pyramid from emerging for next season as they did earlier this year for this season.