Burnie_man Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Dundee and Angus are lowland areas. The SFA don't seem to think the Tay Bridge line is the be all and end all in the PWG minutes that have circulated on here. They aren't Lowland League areas, do we really need to debate this? The SFA didn't have a clue about the dividing line because they took zero interest in non-league football and probably forgot about it (Petrie is clueless), but the LL, HL and EoS are well aware of it and given they are in control of who can or cannot be member clubs, that's all that really matters. That may change if the line changes, but until then it is what it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Luncarty straddles the line, so as explained it's a unique situation which would be looked on sensibly I expect, I doubt the actual location of the ground within the village is going to be a major concern. There are no other instances of this that I am aware of... Ignoring the drivel at the end, what's important here is what has actually been written in constitutions. In the SPFL constitution it is only the location of the registered home ground that matters: https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/files/shares/SPFL Rules and Regulations 22-Jul-19.pdf In the event of Club 42 losing the PyramidPlay-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. If you view this as the basis of what happens at the EoS level as well then Luncarty are north of the line and there is no flexibility. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, LongTimeLurker said: Dundee and Angus are lowland areas. The SFA don't seem to think the Tay Bridge line is the be all and end all in the PWG minutes that have circulated on here. The EoS were already accused of stealing clubs in the PWG. They're also the ones that have previously suggested the Tayside league. If they just started accepted everyone in it would look like they've been acting in bad faith and not seeking an overall solution. They've also got the knowledge that the LL used the HL/LL boundary for their application advert, as well as any insights from the shared meetings between the senior leagues to know what they feeling is over the boundary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, LongTimeLurker said: Ignoring the drivel at the end, what's important here is what has actually been written in constitutions. In the SPFL constitution it is only the location of the registered home ground that matters: https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/files/shares/SPFL Rules and Regulations 22-Jul-19.pdf In the event of Club 42 losing the PyramidPlay-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. If you view this as the basis of what happens at the EoS level as well then Luncarty are north of the line and there is no flexibility. As has been said, if Luncarty have applied to the EoS then I'm sure a practical view will be taken of this unique situation, and as you say it's doubtful they will bother the SPFL anytime soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, Burnie_man said: They aren't Lowland League areas, do we really need to debate this? ... They are south of the Highland Boundary Fault, so by any conventional application of Scottish geography they are Lowland rather than Highland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, LongTimeLurker said: They are south of the Highland Boundary Fault, so by any conventional application of Scottish geography they are Lowland rather than Highland. But that's never been used as the boundary between the Highland LEAGUE and Lowland LEAGUE. From the very beginning of this idea the boundary between those leagues was set as the Tay so that Dundee would be included in the Highland League. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Boundaries can easily be adjusted if there is only one rule that is involved that isn't even in the EoS and LL constitutions and the SFA definitely seem to think all of the ERSJFA can feed into the LL in the PWG minutes and the latest set of options for discussion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, cmontheloknow said: And I provided a link to the source information. I did not mean 'lent' as in 'given for a short period of time' - it's a turn of phrase. I am sure that LRFC would have had to OK the using of it - maybe there was some benefit to them? https://mylinlithgow.com/directory/listing/community-groups/linlithgow-rose-community-football-club/ "Linlithgow Rose Community Football Club was formed in 1992 and has grown to be one of the largest youth football organisations in West Lothian. Founded as Bailielands FC, the club changed its name to be inclusive of the whole town. We exist to afford the youth of Linlithgow and the surrounding area the opportunity to play football within a Community based Club. Currently, with over 50 qualified coaches and a dedicated Goalkeeping School, the Club continues to develop and become an integral part of the local community. April 2012 saw Linlithgow Rose CFC awarded Community Level in both the SFA Quality Mark and West Lothian Councils Club Accreditation Scheme. With a membership base of c500 players, involved through, girls, soccer 4's, soccer 7's, 11-a-side, Amateur and Junior, dedicated goalkeeping school, and a Refereeing Programme - Linlithgow Rose Community Football Club deliver a pathway to all levels of Football. We are a Scottish charity and the club's intentions are to provide a well run and managed community football club with all the appropriate policies, procedures and criteria in place to deliver fun, planned, and safe football-related activities." Before they had an adult men's team it seemed sensible for the community club to use the Linlithgow Rose name - it gives them a bit of recognition, and the big club don't have a youth/ female set-up. But there has to be some possibility for confusion among casual supporters now that there's an adult men's team with the same name, especially as they're Junior and the big club aren't any more. Watching a club that wasn't Linlithgow Rose called Linlithgow Rose playing in the colours of Linlithgow Rose at Linlithgow Rose's ground against Pollok in a Junior Cup tie was a bit... strange. I'm sure it's all fine and it's not really my place to be bothered about it and I'm sure those running the community club are doing the town a service, I just wondered how much thought had been given to it by those at the two clubs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Just now, LongTimeLurker said: Boundaries can easily be adjusted if there is only one rule that is involved that isn't even in the EoS and LL constitutions and the SFA definitely seem to think all of the ERSJFA can feed into the LL in the PWG minutes and the latest set of options for discussion. Easily adjusted when there is an agreement in what that looks like. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) As things stand there is only a rule for where team 42 goes. There is nothing in writing in the LL constitution that I can find that says anything about teams having to be based south of 56,4513N in terms of their registered home ground. Hence why the SFA would state at the end of last season that there has been confusion on this point and why the SFA don't necessarily see this as a problem where ERSJFA clubs are concerned. Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 57 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: It does if you think the exact line of latitude that is mentioned in the SPFL relegation rule determines everything rigidly down to the level of the EoS league as you and others have been arguing on here for the last couple of years. Meanwhile Clydebank could have been in the EoS this season if they wanted to be, so if there is scope for plenty of flexibility going west, it's not clear why the EoS would have an issue with accepting all junior clubs in Perthshire, Dundee and Angus when the SFA don't seem to think it's a problem. Well, at least, the matter of the line of Latitude and its' implications will be something which RP and AM will be aware of now - after last years' learning curve for them! Let's hope that they can come up with a satisfactory resolution/clarification to this issue by the end of this season. By the way, which Tay Bridge does the rule refer to? Or is a line of Latitude given in the rule and it is that which matters? Perhaps the SFA can just say that the rule need not apply to Tier 6 and below i.e. leave it to the Tier 6 Leagues to decide on an individual basis whether or not they will accept teams on the "other" side of the given line of Latitude i.e. some Perthshire clubs may be given dispensation to accept a place in the EoS if that League is willing to take them on board? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Dev said: By the way, which Tay Bridge does the rule refer to? Or is a line of Latitude given in the rule and it is that which matters? There's no mention of the Tay Bridge in the rule only the line of latitude of 56,4513N. It's the midpoint of the road bridge that is involved. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 Clearly the SPFL, HL and LL are in agreement where the dividing line is set, and that is what they must follow, ergo the EoS must follow what the LL and SPFL decide. It's not difficult to grasp.Imagine Forfar Athletic being relegated into the HL whilst Forfar West End played in the LL. It would be a bit silly.Hence why the LL and EoS follow the SPFL regulations on the issue. If the SPFL/HL/LL agree to amend the line, then the leagues below follow suit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: They are south of the Highland Boundary Fault, so by any conventional application of Scottish geography they are Lowland rather than Highland. Well, if we're playing a game of picking random definitions of the Highlands, should we kick all the Moray and Aberdeenshire clubs out of the Highland League, since they're outwith the Highland Council area? Or let the Moray ones in, since they're in the Highlands and Islands Development board area? Should we kick the Borders teams out as they're in the Southern Uplands, not the Lowlands? There's a set boundary for football, it's in the regulations. Yes, it's a line of latitude, rightly or wrongly, but it's there. Constitutions can be changed, but you have to work within the regulations as they currently stand. Edited January 2, 2020 by Cyclizine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Clearly the SPFL, HL and LL are in agreement where the dividing line is set, and that is what they must follow, ergo the EoS must follow what the LL and SPFL decide. It's not difficult to grasp.... That is not at all clear when the SFA have been circulating proposals that talk about the ERSJFA feeding into the LL both last season and this season and it is the SFA that is tasked with determining the club that plays against team 42 in the playoff. Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Ignoring the drivel at the end, what's important here is what has actually been written in constitutions. In the SPFL constitution it is only the location of the registered home ground that matters: https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/files/shares/SPFL Rules and Regulations 22-Jul-19.pdf In the event of Club 42 losing the PyramidPlay-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. If you view this as the basis of what happens at the EoS level as well then Luncarty are north of the line and there is no flexibility. Good point. The Rules regarding the Line of Latitude separating the HL and LL zones were designed with the SPFL in mind. Nothing-else was taken into account. However, in order to have a workable Pyramid below Tier 6 there needs to be a little pragmatism/common sense injected. In the event that a team at Tier 6 or below wishes to play in a League "on the other side of the line of Latitude" why can't they be given a simple dispensation to do so in the SFA Rules? Then Tayport could play in a Dundee/Angus Tier 6 League whilst Luncarty could play in e.g. the EoS. In such situations the teams would have to acknowledge that for the purposes of promotion to Tier 5 they would not be eligible unless they reverted back to their original zones. The rules of the LL/HL would need to be adjusted so that such teams, upon winning their leagues, would be disregarded with promotion going to the next eligible team. Simples! Job done. Edited January 2, 2020 by Dev grammatical error 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 43 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said: Ignoring the drivel at the end, what's important here is what has actually been written in constitutions. In the SPFL constitution it is only the location of the registered home ground that matters: https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/files/shares/SPFL Rules and Regulations 22-Jul-19.pdf In the event of Club 42 losing the PyramidPlay-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. If you view this as the basis of what happens at the EoS level as well then Luncarty are north of the line and there is no flexibility. Given the above where does the East Region Junior League fit into all of this, as it straddles both sides of the line of Latitude, and apparently (?) the SFA will not allow a winner of the play-off between the North and South sections to be promoted to Tier 5. Also, at present there are teams from south of the line of Latitude which play in the North section. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dev said: Given the above where does the East Region Junior League fit into all of this, as it straddles both sides of the line of Latitude, and apparently (?) the SFA will not allow a winner of the play-off between the North and South sections to be promoted to Tier 5. Also, at present there are teams from south of the line of Latitude which play in the North section. Because, pretty much by definition, the juniors are not in the senior pyramid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dev said: Given the above where does the East Region Junior League fit into all of this, as it straddles both sides of the line of Latitude, and apparently (?) the SFA will not allow a winner of the play-off between the North and South sections to be promoted to Tier 5. Also, at present there are teams from south of the line of Latitude which play in the North section. The only explicitly stated rule with this line of latitude covers what happens for team 42 going from the SPFL downwards. People have extrapolated from there as to what they think should also happen on that basis in tier 5 and 6 but as far as I am aware it isn't actually stated explicitly anywhere, which means there is no obvious reason in terms of the rules involved as things stand at the moment why Luncarty (or Brechin Vics for that matter) shouldn't be able to enter the EoS, LL and SPFL as long as they are moving upwards rather than downwards from the SPFL as team 42. Edited January 2, 2020 by LongTimeLurker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 That is not at all clear when the SFA have been circulating proposals that talk about the ERSJFA feeding into the LL both last season and this season and it is the SFA that is tasked with determining the club that plays against team 42 in the playoff.Because Petrie and Maxwell are clueless about non league football and how it operates. It is also not in the power of the SFA to change the line. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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