New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Ormi]

7 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Yeah, the Conferences have been likely for that kind of breakdown for a while.

Keep in mind post LL creation the EoS did try and carry on with 2 divisions. As some clubs preferred the promotion/relegation aspect and chance of a trophy. 

I don't think any of those in the 2nd Division would mind that much. Plus fingers crossed it could be bolstered to double digits.

I’d be happy with that. I always knew it would take 2-3 years to sort itself out after the 2018 junior exodus - and we’d end up on the wrong side of some heavy defeats.

And we now seem to be gradually reaching the point where fairly equal divisions are being created, with a clear structure between them, and that can only be seen as positive. 

[Burnie_man]

12 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

While a 16 team First Division would be desirable, if we had the same number of teams as this season (40) then why not go 16-12-12 to begin with?

That's an option, but perhaps a bit much to promote/relegate 6 teams in a 12 team league, plus we should see new applicants anyway, fingers crossed.

[Burnie_man]

45 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Since that went over the head a little. We'll delve deeper into the conspiracy!

Telling ya. It's guaranteed

Second Division

Burntisland Shipyard

Peebles Rovers

Ormiston

Hawick RAU

Tweedmouth Rangers

Easthouses Lily

Arniston Rangers

Sandys

Fauldhouse United

Craigroyston*

Eyemouth United*

LOL, no I understood what you meant, ie it was re-tweeted by the EoS account.

We like to help out our wee Junior pals when we can

[Marten]

16 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Did they mention how they are finding the North Super and Premier League setup? Because that's basically what will be left if the Fife and West Lothian teams join the EOS. Which makes you wonder if the talk of "East Region at tier 6" and "done deal" is just to persuade the Lowland area teams to stay, so the Tayside clubs aren't left on their own.

It's pretty clear to me that the north/south split in the ERJFA has been pushed by the West Lothian clubs. Amongst Tayside clubs the new format isn't exactly popular, to put it mildly. I get the idea that the plans made it due to some fears clubs would otherwise move to the EOS.

[FairWeatherFan]

7 minutes ago, Ormi said:

I’d be happy with that. I always knew it would take 2-3 years to sort itself out after the 2018 junior exodus - and we’d end up on the wrong side of some heavy defeats.

And we now seem to be gradually reaching the point where fairly equal divisions are being created, with a clear structure between them, and that can only be seen as positive. 

That's certainly my take on it.

1. League that can be won or at least chance of promotion in a good season.
2. The bigger cups Qualifying Cup at the start, League Cup at the end of the season for games against the big teams in the EoSFL.
3. King Cup as a trophy that could won by a team on form as it no longer has Premier teams in it.
4. Then either the big day(s) out in the Scottish Cup or an early season run in the Alex Jack Cup.

Plenty for any prospective Second Division side to look forward to in a season. Plus potential new faces with new members to keep things fresh.

[Ray Patterson]

Will be interesting to see post East (South) juniors joining if the EoS looks at doing some form of promotion/relegation to the Border Ams, LEAFA Ams and Kingdom Caledonian.

[Che Dail]

6 hours ago, ArabAuslander said:

Will be interesting to see post East (South) juniors joining if the EoS looks at doing some form of promotion/relegation to the Border Ams, LEAFA Ams and Kingdom Caledonian.

Hypothetical scenario just now but it is worthwhile seeing what the EoS Division 2 tier could look like if split regionally:

West (15): Sauchie, Blackburn, Stirling Uni, Heriot Watt Uni(?), Dunipace, Fauldhouse, Bathgate, Whitburn, Livingston, Pumpherston, Armadale, Harthill, Stoneyburn, Syngenta, West Calder

Central (16): Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley, Burntisland, Tayport, Luncarty(?), Thornton, Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth, Newburgh, Kirkcaldy & Dysart, Lochgelly

South (16): Whitehill, Edinburgh United, Dalkeith, Preston, Coldstream, Haddington, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Tweedmouth, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk(?), Kelso(?)

This is a logical solution and should be attractive to most clubs at this level: significantly less travel, more derbies, focus on community and SFA Licencing. 

You effectively have a 'SuperLeague' which is the LL, a 'Premier' and then the local teams below it.   

It could help encourage a revival of the likes of borders clubs such as Eyemouth / Selkirk / Kelso / Duns.  And for the West teams potentially dropping down (if it is Sauchie and Blackburn) you have a decent and interesting local league to compete in.

It would also allow a straightforward transition for ambitious ams clubs wanting to progress, or those having to drop down for whatever reason.

The north of Tay Junior clubs can fend for themselves and affiliate to the HL structure, which would get them going on the path towards club licensing and Scottish Cup entry. 

Need to get heads together to sort it out.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Hypothetical scenario just now but it is worthwhile seeing what the EoS Division 2 tier could look like if split regionally:

West (15): Sauchie, Blackburn, Stirling Uni, Heriot Watt Uni(?), Dunipace, Fauldhouse, Bathgate, Whitburn, Livingston, Pumpherston, Armadale, Harthill, Stoneyburn, Syngenta, West Calder

Central (16): Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley, Burntisland, Tayport, Luncarty(?), Thornton, Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth, Newburgh, Kirkcaldy & Dysart, Lochgelly

South (16): Whitehill, Edinburgh United, Dalkeith, Preston, Coldstream, Haddington, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Tweedmouth, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk(?), Kelso(?)

This is a logical solution and should be attractive to most clubs at this level: significantly less travel, more derbies, focus on community and SFA Licencing. 

You effectively have a 'SuperLeague' which is the LL, a 'Premier' and then the local teams below it.   

It could help encourage a revival of the likes of borders clubs such as Eyemouth / Selkirk / Kelso / Duns.  And for the West teams potentially dropping down (if it is Sauchie and Blackburn) you have a decent and interesting local league to compete in.

It would also allow a straightforward transition for ambitious ams clubs wanting to progress, or those having to drop down for whatever reason.

The north of Tay Junior clubs can fend for themselves and affiliate to the HL structure, which would get them going on the path towards club licensing and Scottish Cup entry. 

Need to get heads together to sort it out.

Don't think it would be that popular as the majority of those teams would have nothing to play for with only one real promotion spot for the champions.

[Che Dail]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't think it would be that popular as the majority of those teams would have nothing to play for with only one real promotion spot for the champions.

Which is the same scenario as the EoS Premier to LL?  

You'd have the winner of each regional league automatically promoted, and a play-off  between the 3 second placed teams and the 4th bottom of the premier. 

At this rung of the ladder it is local football with derbies to play for every other week - the best of the best will move up, and you'd have cup runs and Scottish Cup entry to look forward to.

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Which is the same scenario as the EoS Premier to LL?  

You'd have the winner of each regional league automatically promoted, and a play-off  between the 3 second placed teams and the 4th bottom of the premier. 

At this rung of the ladder it is local football with derbies to play for every other week - the best of the best will move up, and you'd have cup runs and Scottish Cup entry to look forward to.

The EoS Premier already has to consider a 4th relegation spot as it is. If the West Region does get signed up and there's still just one promotion spot to go for. Then it becomes more likely that the EoS Premier will be relegating 4 clubs as it is. 

You'll also see the most common complaint is more promotion to and relegation from the Lowland League.

You look at the evolution of the East Region is was all about trying to get as fluid a promotion/relegation as they could get. The EoSFL in the 80s got to 18 and then expanded to 2 divisions of 10 to keep interest.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Definitely one that should be discussed and good thinking. Crowds will be higher at the lower level if more local.

I take the point about one one promotion spot though.

Perhaps a top four playoff? Thinking outside the box.

Hypothetical scenario just now but it is worthwhile seeing what the EoS Division 2 tier could look like if split regionally:
West (15): Sauchie, Blackburn, Stirling Uni, Heriot Watt Uni(?), Dunipace, Fauldhouse, Bathgate, Whitburn, Livingston, Pumpherston, Armadale, Harthill, Stoneyburn, Syngenta, West Calder
Central (16): Inverkeithing, Glenrothes, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Oakley, Burntisland, Tayport, Luncarty(?), Thornton, Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth, Newburgh, Kirkcaldy & Dysart, Lochgelly
South (16): Whitehill, Edinburgh United, Dalkeith, Preston, Coldstream, Haddington, Peebles, Ormiston, Hawick, Tweedmouth, Easthouses, Arniston, Craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk(?), Kelso(?)
This is a logical solution and should be attractive to most clubs at this level: significantly less travel, more derbies, focus on community and SFA Licencing. 
You effectively have a 'SuperLeague' which is the LL, a 'Premier' and then the local teams below it.   
It could help encourage a revival of the likes of borders clubs such as Eyemouth / Selkirk / Kelso / Duns.  And for the West teams potentially dropping down (if it is Sauchie and Blackburn) you have a decent and interesting local league to compete in.
It would also allow a straightforward transition for ambitious ams clubs wanting to progress, or those having to drop down for whatever reason.
The north of Tay Junior clubs can fend for themselves and affiliate to the HL structure, which would get them going on the path towards club licensing and Scottish Cup entry. 
Need to get heads together to sort it out.

[Che Dail]

21 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The EoS Premier already has to consider a 4th relegation spot as it is. If the West Region does get signed up and there's still just one promotion spot to go for. Then it becomes more likely that the EoS Premier will be relegating 4 clubs as it is. 

You'll also see the most common complaint is more promotion to and relegation from the Lowland League.

You look at the evolution of the East Region is was all about trying to get as fluid a promotion/relegation as they could get. The EoSFL in the 80s got to 18 and then expanded to 2 divisions of 10 to keep interest.

I know - I think it should be 3 up and 3 down between LL and EoS Premier - poor scenario this season if Bo'ness win the league and can't go up due to the lack of a licence.

I agree with your point about the leagues being fluid  - it was one reason for the shake up in the East Juniors when they introduced the Premier League under the Super.  A negative aspect was the amount of travelling involved for some clubs for what was basically an 'in-between' league, eg was Dunbar or Haddington travelling to St. Andrews and Tayport for a league match really necessary or desirable at this level of football?

I just think the best outcome for the long-term stability of the pyramid structure is getting the numbers up and improving the overall standard with the introduction of the West Lothian and Fife juniors. and making it regional would be a really good starting point.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Che Dail

[FairWeatherFan]

Only a handful of attendances go into the average. But do the South Super & Premier Leagues do significantly better than the EoS Conferences.

With only 3/47 getting promoted things have the potential to get stale. 9/47 (one area wide with two regionals). Helps keep it fresher.

On 03/01/2020 at 12:58, Burnieclub78 said:

Updated spreadsheets with total att, games, averages etc. 

The more games we can get headcounts for the better the stats for all clubs to use.

 

[gaz5]

Don't think it would be that popular as the majority of those teams would have nothing to play for with only one real promotion spot for the champions.

Agreed.

As someone currently at a team in that list that setup isn't appealing to me at all and I don't really see a requirement for it.

I'd much prefer an EoS Premier (16), EoS First (16) and if required because of numbers conferences below that.

The "local" element is over played at times in my opinion and when you split regionally you are almost always likely to have weaker/stronger league's. At least the theory behind seeded conferences tries to keep it relatively even.

[parsforlife]

Ultimately creates the same issues as the old ESJFA structure that worked better with 2 region wide divisions and 2 feeders.

If we went with that it would more be

EoS first
Sauchie, Blackburn, Whitehill, inverkeithing, Glenrothes, Dunipace,Herriot watt, LTHV, Haddington, Preston, Dalkeith, Pumpherston,Armadale, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, St. Andrews

North
Tayport, kinnoull, Thornton , Kennoway, Lochore, Rosyth , Newburgh, Kilkcaldy, Lochgelly, luncarty, Oakley, Burntisland, lochore, Stirling uni, syngenta , Bathgate

South
Edinburgh United , Coldstream, Peebles, ormiston, Hawick, easthouses, arniston, craigroyston, Eyemouth, Selkirk, Kelso, Duns, Harthill, stoneyburn, west Calder tweedmouth.

Few placeholder sides put in with the returning border sides/luncarty, you also have the CIC’s as possibilities as well as the likes of AM soccer, Glenrothes strollers etc. You can run the divisions smaller if nobody turned up or possibly squeeze some/all divisions up to 18 if a all/most non-EoS/ESJFA clubs that have been rumoured before were to enter. Ultimately tho if the EoS was big enough to go 16-16-(16/16) then tie ups to amateur leagues would need put in place.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

The "local" element is over played at times in my opinion and when you split regionally you are almost always likely to have weaker/stronger league's. At least the theory behind seeded conferences tries to keep it relatively even.

For me it's usually a case of the 10 or so clubs that are typically going to be region wide give a bump to the 10 or so clubs that usually down playing district level.

So you're handicapping those that would be region wide to benefit the lowest.

More of the leagues have gone away from district levels: West Region, North Region.

The only reason the East Region went the way they have was due to the circumstances they are dealing with. Even then they went for small divisions for promotion/relegation to keep interest.

[Burnieclub78]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only a handful of attendances go into the average. But do the South Super & Premier Leagues do significantly better than the EoS Conferences.

With only 3/47 getting promoted things have the potential to get stale. 9/47 (one area wide with two regionals). Helps keep it fresher.

 

It's a bit early to say. I am relying more on supporters figures in the Juniors with quite a few estimated in the first few weeks. A good few clubs on board now and I believe more accurate headcounts. Still quite a few clubs to get on board and more headcounts needed. I have been getting figures for around 65/70% of games lately. Still early days with this but hopefully by next season I can get the same response as I get from EOS. SOS & Lowland clubs. 

Interestingly I did a wee stat just before Xmas regarding average att / headcounts for non league 

All junior regions combined average att 154

East of Scotland, south of Scotland,  lowland & Highland (non league seniors)  combined average att 156

All juniors and non league seniors combined average att 155 

 

[Marten]

4 minutes ago, Burnieclub78 said:

It's a bit early to say. I am relying more on supporters figures in the Juniors with quite a few estimated in the first few weeks. A good few clubs on board now and I believe more accurate headcounts. Still quite a few clubs to get on board and more headcounts needed. I have been getting figures for around 65/70% of games lately. Still early days with this but hopefully by next season I can get the same response as I get from EOS. SOS & Lowland clubs. 

Interestingly I did a wee stat just before Xmas regarding average att / headcounts for non league 

All junior regions combined average att 154

East of Scotland, south of Scotland,  lowland & Highland (non league seniors)  combined average att 156

All juniors and non league seniors combined average att 155 

 

Do you already have someone for figures at Lochee United? I go to a fair amount of games (home & some away) so I could help if needed?

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Don't think it would be that popular as the majority of those teams would have nothing to play for with only one real promotion spot for the champions.

That's the problem with three regions and won't really work.   We used to have 3 regions in the Juniors (North, Central, South), and due to lack of promotion spots clubs demanded change which lead to the Central Divison being scrapped and a new Premier Division being created.

Two regionals is really the most you can have if promoting into a single division above. 

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, gaz5 said:

Agreed.

As someone currently at a team in that list that setup isn't appealing to me at all and I don't really see a requirement for it.

I'd much prefer an EoS Premier (16), EoS First (16) and if required because of numbers conferences below that.

The "local" element is over played at times in my opinion and when you split regionally you are almost always likely to have weaker/stronger league's. At least the theory behind seeded conferences tries to keep it relatively even.

Agreed.  If Blackburn fell to that 3 region level, we'd barely travel outside West Lothian which is just awful.  The impact on crowds would be negligible as well, local football = bigger crowds is largely a myth.

A set-up mirroring the ERJFA before clubs left would be the best long term solution  Premier (16) - First (16) - then North and South, with Fife placed North, Borders placed South, then everyone else split between the two.