New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Ray Patterson]

Just now, themillerman1979 said:

 

I thought it would be simple as well. But for whatever reason Tayside still seems to be casting envious glances South and completely ignoring the suggestions (sensible as they are) that you've laid out. 

I think the Aberdeen to Brechin route is as easy as you'll get as well. No issues there. But when you factor in Wick, Fort William, Nairn, Inverness and so on it does start to seem daunting.

If the Border was Pushed South that would probably solve a chunk of the issues. You'd and up with a similar split to EOSFL and SOSFL in the Highland League. This would then draw in some stronger teams such as Jeanfield, St Andrews, Kinnoull, Kennoway.

You say that but I think there's still an idea for people in Dundee that getting to Aberdeen or places like Huntly or Inverurie is a trek, although the AWPR has helped this massively. I spoke to a family member about this a wee while ago and he thought it took 4 hours to get to Huntly from Dundee. This is the same family member who leaves Dundee at 10:30 to drive to Inverness or Ross County 3pm away. Take away Wick (which would be once per season) then the travelling from Dundee is on average less than the current LL. It's quicker to get to Fort or Nairn than it is to go to Dalbeattie for example.

I understand Luncarty wanting in the EoS, and Tayport being with the Dundee clubs. Could always move the boundary a mile south in Tayport, and a mile North in Luncarty. 

I think if the SFA/SJFA wanted to they could probably lure the Tayside clubs into a HL feeder at some point. Maybe help with additional Cup places for Tayside League winners or Quest Engineering Cup Winners, Set Prize Money, or a small Travel Grant if Promoted.

[Guest]

There is no indication that the HL see the Tayside juniors as a potential tier 6 feeder. They only ever mention the NCL and the north region in that context. Tayside is in no man's land because neither the LL/EoS or HL appear to want them.

clubs fall into HL territory if they are above the dividing line. They fall into LL territory if they are below the line.

Its quite a simplistic process really.

There is no ambiguity with it.

[LongTimeLurker]

Tell that to Brechin City.

[FairWeatherFan]

So far we've seen:

• The initial move of ERSJFA clubs to the EoSFL in 2018
• The resumed PWG meetings from 2018-2020
• The one to one meeting or meetings between the EoSFL and ERSJFA
• The end of the PWG that led to the WRSJFA representing their own interests in pyramid discussions.

The main takeaway during all of that is the EoSFL does not want the ERSJFA to enter the pyramid. Their solution being the creation of a Tayside league and presumably South of the Boundary members joining the EoSFL. Not the mass entry of all ERSJFA members into the EoSFL.

The consideration of the Luncarty application is not a relaxation of any rule that governs the EoSFL which is why they can hear it. And its entirely possible that going to a membership vote a reason for rejection would be that they fall North of the HL/LL boundary.

[parsforlife]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Tell that to Brechin City.

To be fair, people have been and it seemed they were increasingly recognising that if relegated they be playing HL.

[Marten]

29 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

You say that but I think there's still an idea for people in Dundee that getting to Aberdeen or places like Huntly or Inverurie is a trek, although the AWPR has helped this massively. I spoke to a family member about this a wee while ago and he thought it took 4 hours to get to Huntly from Dundee. This is the same family member who leaves Dundee at 10:30 to drive to Inverness or Ross County 3pm away. Take away Wick (which would be once per season) then the travelling from Dundee is on average less than the current LL. It's quicker to get to Fort or Nairn than it is to go to Dalbeattie for example.

I understand Luncarty wanting in the EoS, and Tayport being with the Dundee clubs. Could always move the boundary a mile south in Tayport, and a mile North in Luncarty. 

I think if the SFA/SJFA wanted to they could probably lure the Tayside clubs into a HL feeder at some point. Maybe help with additional Cup places for Tayside League winners or Quest Engineering Cup Winners, Set Prize Money, or a small Travel Grant if Promoted.

Agreed, I've driven to both Aberdeen & Edinburgh (and surrounding areas for both) multiple times. I generally find Aberdeen easier & quicker from here, especially on weekdays peak times.

[AlanCamelonfan]

55 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

I can see your argument clearly. I guess back in the Junior days things like floodlights were a luxury of the few. You also had an organisation which didn't seem to care about sending Camelon to Carnoustie midweek. I'm sure any complaint would have been met with "get on with it".

Going forward, if Camelon were sent to Carnoustie (example purposes only) during the week it would more than likely be as part of Tier 6 (potentially Tier 5 given the progress of your club recently) and the EOSFL seem to be sensible in scheduling around floodlights which more and more are getting. This would allow a much more flexible time to be agreed. Not to mention the opportunity for clubs to reschedule the day it's played on as well.

 

 

It would  be quicker for us to go to ayrshire than carnoustie. 1 hour to kilwinning when we plaed down their 1 hr 35 to carnoustie

[Guest]

I wasn't saying it for brechins benefit

Tell that to Brechin City.

[themillerman1979]

1 minute ago, ArabAuslander said:

You say that but I think there's still an idea for people in Dundee that getting to Aberdeen or places like Huntly or Inverurie is a trek, although the AWPR has helped this massively. I spoke to a family member about this a wee while ago and he thought it took 4 hours to get to Huntly from Dundee. This is the same family member who leaves Dundee at 10:30 to drive to Inverness or Ross County 3pm away. Take away Wick (which would be once per season) then the travelling from Dundee is on average less than the current LL. It's quicker to get to Fort or Nairn than it is to go to Dalbeattie for example.

I understand Luncarty wanting in the EoS, and Tayport being with the Dundee clubs. Could always move the boundary a mile south in Tayport, and a mile North in Luncarty. 

I think if the SFA/SJFA wanted to they could probably lure the Tayside clubs into a HL feeder at some point. Maybe help with additional Cup places for Tayside League winners or Quest Engineering Cup Winners, Set Prize Money, or a small Travel Grant if Promoted.

It's been a while since I travelled beyond Aberdeen to be honest but have used the AWPR and no doubt it's a big improvement. 

I think the Lowland League is a little disproportionate right now. I'm at risk of joining in with the "what if's" here, but I'd certainly expect to see the likes of Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Penicuik, Broxburn, Dundonald, Hill of Beath etc replacing Vale of Leithen, Dalbeattie, Gretna, Gala  as the seasons go on.

 

All that said, I have to disagree on your statement that "the travelling from Dundee is on average less than the current LL" .

I've spent a little time just checking travel distances (can you tell I'm struggling for stimulation during lockdown!!).

When comparing the Highland League Travel versus the Lowland League travel from Dundee, a team like Lochee Utd would rack up around 2,146 miles in travel (using the shortest routes on Google Maps). If they were in the Lowland League they'd be travelling a total of just over 1,300miles (albeit one game less). But quite a significant difference when comparing the two. And as I said above, that doesn't assume that VoL, Dalbeattie, Gretna and Gala are replaced by teams closer to Dundee.  So it's easy to understand when you consider this, why Dundee teams would prefer to go South.

Interestingly, Luncarty would actually rack up less miles (2067 miles) than Lochee Utd if they were the ones to be dropped into the Highland League. So there's actually travel distance based argument to suggest Luncarty are more worthy of being a Highland League team than Lochee Utd. Actually, the same argument could be made for Jeanfield and Kinnoull who'd probably have less travel in the HL than Lochee Utd would.

Carnoustie are a bit of an anomaly. Being a coastal team they actually have no travel distance advantage over a team from Dundee in going to the Highland League. 2148 miles compared to Lochee Utd's 2146miles. But when they go South to the Lowland League they are traveling 1,481miles.

If travel distance is the driver then there are significant issues for tayside teams heading North. The fact is, all these teams, including Carnoustie stand to benefit by being in the Lowland League pyramid setup and that goes back to my previous point that if Luncarty prove successful with their application what's stopping the others in asking the question on entry and using the argument that the Lowland League route presents the most cost effective and sustainable solution in terms of travel?

Apologies for the stat attack on a Friday.

[BMan]

I think someone is wanting Tayside teams in the LL area and knows more about the ins and outs of this that they are admitting!

It makes no sense to increase the amount of clubs falling into the overloaded LL catchment area. Tayside clubs should be seeking talks with the NRJFA about forming a new tier 6 senior league consisting of the top Tayside and NRJFA clubs, feeding into the HL and with access to licencing and SFA membership. They would sit at the same level as the top divisions in West and East.

The link up with the north should really have happened way back in 2002 when the regions were reorganised. They already compete in a regional cup so it's not as if they are strangers, and if course Montrose Roselea moved to the NRJFA.

That is where their future lies. Ultimately, it's for EoS members to decide who joins and who doesn't join their league. Would there be much of an appetite to admit Dundee and Angus clubs? I genuinely don't know.

[Whitburn Vale]

As can be seen from my avatar,I am a supporter of Deveronvale fc,who hails from the central belt.

I regularly travel north to PRP and other HL venues to take in games.

My last was on the 18th of January to see the Banffshire derby between Buckie and Vale.

I have seen many HL games recently and I enjoy each and everyone,apart from the last one lol.

Passing through Tayside on the way is a regular occurrence and I can safely say for me as a West Lothian man,that area of Scotland,particularly Angus is in the NORTH.

Also for ambitious Tayside teams who reach the HL,now that most of the highland big guns are now in the SPFL,the HL is an easier route up the pyramid.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Whitburn Vale

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, themillerman1979 said:

From memory I can't remember a North Region Team winning the cup or even being in the final in recent years which would offer up a theory that likely winners of any combined North Tier 6 League would be from the old Tayside Junior leagues and as such they'd in the Highland League rather quickly. Why would this not be appealing to any ambitious clubs (again mentioning Carnoustie, Lochee Utd & Broughty with their new setup perhaps)? Only reason I can see is the travel and the fact that none of them see it as viable.

They'd only be in the HL with a licence though. And going by this season's competition, it's fairly close between Tayside and the top North clubs https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/east-region/cup-competitons/quest-precision-engineering-cup/

51 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

It's been a while since I travelled beyond Aberdeen to be honest but have used the AWPR and no doubt it's a big improvement. 

I think the Lowland League is a little disproportionate right now. I'm at risk of joining in with the "what if's" here, but I'd certainly expect to see the likes of Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Penicuik, Broxburn, Dundonald, Hill of Beath etc replacing Vale of Leithen, Dalbeattie, Gretna, Gala  as the seasons go on.

The only thing that's disproportionate is the difference between the HL and LL in terms of both the amount of licensed clubs and those in the tiers below - moving the boundary north only makes things worse (without also changing the promotion structure with the SPFL).

If you're going to assume that the poorer LL clubs get replaced then it's also likely the HL will receive Brechin and Brora will get promoted. Plus, not all of the new LL teams will be east or central, a couple are likely to be from the west/Ayrshire. Who knows, Annan might also come down from League Two.

And since it would take a few seasons for a Tayside club to get into the LL, if you're relegating VoL, Gala etc then that means Lochee etc would have trips to the Borders in the EOS.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Ginaro

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, BMan said:

I think someone is wanting Tayside teams in the LL area and knows more about the ins and outs of this that they are admitting!

It makes no sense to increase the amount of clubs falling into the overloaded LL catchment area. Tayside clubs should be seeking talks with the NRJFA about forming a new tier 6 senior league consisting of the top Tayside and NRJFA clubs, feeding into the HL and with access to licencing and SFA membership. They would sit at the same level as the top divisions in West and East.

The link up with the north should really have happened way back in 2002 when the regions were reorganised. They already compete in a regional cup so it's not as if they are strangers, and if course Montrose Roselea moved to the NRJFA.

That is where their future lies. Ultimately, it's for EoS members to decide who joins and who doesn't join their league. Would there be much of an appetite to admit Dundee and Angus clubs? I genuinely don't know.

Slight chance of Brora getting promoted this year. And by the time any Tayside club gets promoted Fort William would probably be out of it or be the team getting replaced.

[themillerman1979]

4 minutes ago, BMan said:

I think someone is wanting Tayside teams in the LL area and knows more about the ins and outs of this that they are admitting!

It makes no sense to increase the amount of clubs falling into the overloaded LL catchment area. Tayside clubs should be seeking talks with the NRJFA about forming a new tier 6 senior league consisting of the top Tayside and NRJFA clubs, feeding into the HL and with access to licencing and SFA membership. They would sit at the same level as the top divisions in West and East.

The link up with the north should really have happened way back in 2002 when the regions were reorganised. They already compete in a regional cup so it's not as if they are strangers, and if course Montrose Roselea moved to the NRJFA.

That is where their future lies. Ultimately, it's for EoS members to decide who joins and who doesn't join their league. Would there be much of an appetite to admit Dundee and Angus clubs? I genuinely don't know.

BMan, being honest I have no "horse" in the race but I used to enjoy Junior Football and now take a keen interest I the Pyramid setup. Definitely pro pyramid and keen to see a successful, fully functioning system in place.  Do I know about the teams being mentioned, yes to a certain degree, albeit my knowledge is not as current as some on here hence the questions being asked.

Would I like to see Tayside teams in the LL? I don't really have an answer to that. But I would like to see some system that includes them rather than laving them playing what is fast becoming a meaningless league.

Surely the football community should be doing all they can to be inclusive given the uncertainty surrounding football in general right now. But whether that route is the Highland League or Lowland League doesn't affect me. I'm merely pointing out that the current "line" means that Luncarty, rightly or wrongly is obviously the topic of some debate, are classed as a highland league team in the same regards as Loche Utd, Broughty Athletic, Carnoustie Panmure etc etc. And in considering allowing someone in from above the line, no matter how far, the EOSFL open the door for others above the line to ask a question.

I agree with you that the Tayside Clubs should be discussing some form of North / Tayside league structure but they clearly aren't for one reason or another. I've suggested that the travelling would be one of those reasons.

The "Luncarty Question" is one which is particularly interesting from both angles. A North of the line club who want to play in the Lowland League catchment area will always raise questions of why? I'm assuming one of those reasons is because they want to avoid a potential travel North to the Highland League Catchment area, but also because, at the moment there is no viable Northern alternative offering progression through the leagues and the opportunity to (if licensed) play in the Scottish Cup.

As I say, if the vote is to approve Luncarty's application I think others in the same league will be asking for similar consideration and the EOSFL have been very open to these types of discussions it seems.

I'm just watching with interest at how it all unfolds. 

 

[BMan]

Luncarty won't open the door or change anything with the EoS I'm afraid. It remains upto members to decide who joins and who doesn't, and as it stands, there is no guarantee Luncarty will be accepted, although I'd be surprised if they were refused.

Maybe it's me, but I can't see too much of a problem with this sort of  set-up as a future for both Tayside and North at tier 6 and 7 in the HL Pyramid.

Edited April 17, 2020 by BMan

[RedEd]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Slight chance of Brora getting promoted this year. And by the time any Tayside club gets promoted Fort William would probably be out of it or be the team getting replaced.

Hopefully the Highland and Lowland Leagues being part of the SPFL Reconstruction Group increases the prospect of Brora and Kelty being promoted.

[themillerman1979]

12 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

They'd only be in the HL with a licence though. And going by this season's competition, it's fairly close between Tayside and the top North clubs https://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/east-region/cup-competitons/quest-precision-engineering-cup/

The only thing that's disproportionate is the difference between the HL and LL in terms of both the amount of licensed clubs and those in the tiers below - moving the boundary north only makes things worse (without also changing the promotion structure with the SPFL).

If you're going to assume that the poorer LL clubs get replaced then it's also likely the HL will receive Brechin and Brora will get promoted. Plus, not all of the new LL teams will be east or central, a couple are likely to be from the west/Ayrshire. Who knows, Annan might also come down from League Two.

And since it would take a few seasons for a Tayside club to get into the LL, if you're relegating VoL, Gala etc then that means Lochee etc would have trips to the Borders.

All noted Ginaro and I did say I was at risk of becoming one of the "What If" brigade.

I did also say that I predicted those southern teams dropping out but none of the calc's factored that in. So assuming 4 teams of that travel distance are included throughout it's still significantly less travel for a team in Dundee to go to the Lowland League than to the highland League. I know this is all hypothetical, but given that the old Junior Superleagues quite often only had one or two Dundee teams involved it's reasonable to use a similar thought process that it may be one or two that work their way up to that level as opposed to mass Tayside domination at either side of the line.

What I would say is, I know there is no right or wrong answer to this and each team will have a view depending on how it affects them. 

[themillerman1979]

5 minutes ago, BMan said:

Luncarty won't open the door or change anything with the EoS I'm afraid. It remains upto members to decide who joins and who doesn't, and as it stands, there is no guarantee Luncarty will be accepted, although I'd be surprised if they were refused.

Maybe it's me, but I can't see too much of a problem with this sort of  set-up as a future for both Tayside and North at tier 6 and 7 in the HL Pyramid.

I think that sort of setup would be the way forward as well. It would certainly breath some new life into the North Juniors.

Is there a reason this is not being moved forward by either the North or the Tayside League?

And interesting to hear your views on Luncarty. Would it be safe to assume you would be in favour of them joining? 

[BMan]

2 minutes ago, themillerman1979 said:

I think that sort of setup would be the way forward as well. It would certainly breath some new life into the North Juniors.

Is there a reason this is not being moved forward by either the North or the Tayside League?

And interesting to hear your views on Luncarty. Would it be safe to assume you would be in favour of them joining? 

I guess it would take the Tayside clubs and the NRJFA to start talking about it, I've not seen anything to suggest that they have.  It would mean independent talks, leaving the West Lothian clubs aside.  Carnoustie's statement today suggests dissatisfaction with the ERJFA's handling of issues to date.

I would have no problem with Luncarty personally, not upto me though.

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, BMan said:

I guess it would take the Tayside clubs and the NRJFA to start talking about it, I've not seen anything to suggest that they have.  It would mean independent talks, leaving the West Lothian clubs aside.  Carnoustie's statement today suggests dissatisfaction with the ERJFA's handling of issues to date.

I would have no problem with Luncarty personally, not upto me though.

For those that haven't seen it:

Can I first of all pass on my best wishes to our committee, coaches, players, supporters, sponsors and advertisers at what is a difficult time for everybody having to cope with the Covid-19 pandemic and thank you to all those who are working on the frontline to help us, wherever you may be working.

Last night saw a decision taken by the Management Committee of the East Region that sees the 2019/20 season null and void, meaning that no team will be awarded the title in any of the four divisions. The decision is difficult to take for us as a club, from a season that has been particularly tough with a number of obstacles off the park having to be overcome as well as maintaining the top position in the Super League North.

I will not go in to the specifics of the decision other than it has been my consistent belief that declaring a season null and void is not an acceptable decision in any league but at our level it is made worse because a lot of players play for the love of the game and not to award a title after the majority of the season is wrong.

I would like to go on record as thanking our hardworking committee for their efforts during the season as well as Manager Phil McGuire, his coaching staff and the players. I am proud of every one of you and the way we have dealt with everything that has been thrown at us, since the beginning of July last year, in the right way. I would also like to thank Libby, Graham and Garry as well as the rest of everybody associated with Back Onside as we couldn’t have got through the season without your backing.

Where we go from here I am not sure, there several things going on regarding the league structure in the East but with the West Region clubs leaving the Junior game for the newly formed West of Scotland League, being ran by the Lowland League, I really have fears for the continued existence of the Junior game and as a result we will need to look at which direction is best for the club both in reality and metaphorically.

The background politics that, in my opinion, are not helping the Junior game, are not the reason I got involved in Junior football, whether I want to be involved in that is now questionable and something that I need to consider.

Meantime I will endeavour to keep you all up to date with the format for next season as far as I can.

Once again thank you to everybody for the efforts and support during the season.

Mark Johnson
General Manager