Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[Guest Jedi]

13 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

Tartan Tories or whatever phrase you used is pretty lame. 

Not a phrase I have used at any point, either in this thread or in 'real life'. My citing the Growth Commission Plan as being right wing in tenor (which it is), is not the same as calling the SNP-'Tories'.

On the red wall issue, the bone of contention seems to be largely that Labour are not proposing to either hold a 2nd EU Referendum, or indeed 'reverse' Brexit at the next GE, rather talking about 'making Brexit work', which is unprincipled as it panders to red wall voters who supported it. In fairness, even the Lib Dems (who if memory serves were drubbed last time for saying they would reverse Brexit), are now also talking about making it work, and building better relations with the EU.

I totally take the point (and agree with it), that both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, and yet were dragged out, and it is natural to seek to redress that.

However, clearly to enter the next election when 2019 was entirely dominated by it, the Tories essentially winning on 'Get Brexit Done', as well as Jeremy Corbyn being too unpopular, it would hand Liz Truss the keys to No.10 for another 5 years now, if Labour were to call for a 2nd Ref, or reversal, if elected. You can call that 'unprincipled', but its a difficult balance to strike...'Make Brexit Work' at the moment is a phrase-we don't yet know how much a Labour govt would try to move closer to the EU if in power (I suspect they would), just like the Lib Dems.

 

As far as I know HoL reform is still very much in the plans, as part of a wider package of devolution, and a potential replacement of the Lords, with a Council of the Isles...which sounds somewhat like FFA for Scotland if so.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jedi

[doulikefish]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not a phrase I have used at any point, either in this thread or in 'real life'. My citing the Growth Commission Plan as being right wing in tenor (which it is), is not the same as calling the SNP-'Tories'.

On the red wall issue, the bone of contention seems to be largely that Labour are not proposing to either hold a 2nd EU Referendum, or indeed 'reverse' Brexit at the next GE, rather talking about 'making Brexit work', which is unprincipled as it panders to red wall voters who supported it. In fairness, even the Lib Dems (who if memory serves were drubbed last time for saying they would reverse Brexit), are now also talking about making it work, and building better relations with the EU.

I totally take the point (and agree with it), that both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, and yet were dragged out, and it is natural to seek to redress that.

However, clearly to enter the next election when 2019 was entirely dominated by it, the Tories essentially winning on 'Get Brexit Done', as well as Jeremy Corbyn being too unpopular, it would hand Liz Truss the keys to No.10 for another 5 years now, if Labour were to call for a 2nd Ref, or reversal, if elected. You can call that 'unprincipled', but its a difficult balance to strike...'Make Brexit Work' at the moment is a phrase-we don't yet know how much a Labour govt would try to move closer to the EU if in power (I suspect they would), just like the Lib Dems.

 

As far as I know HoL reform is still very much in the plans, as part of a wider package of devolution, and a potential replacement of the Lords, with a Council of the Isles...which sounds somewhat like FFA for Scotland if so.

House of Lords klaxon 

[Guest Jedi]

Incidentally, I am not actually against independence for Scotland. In 2014 I was in favour both of the White Paper proposals, and also, significantly, the input which the likes of the RIC had in the campaign. (and believe it or not there was an all be it overlooked, but I felt, significant Labour for Independence group, as there still is). It felt much more like genuine, left leaning voices were to the fore in the debate of what an Independent Scotland could look like, based on greater communitarian principles.

And yes, I was also against Labour getting into bed with the Tories on the No side. They certainly could and should have run a separate Labour for No ticket instead, and yes, Jim Murphy was an utterly appalling leader (as was Richard Leonard) (and you couldn't find a worse example of the wrong man at the wrong time).

However, where my unease (to say the least) comes from the current Independence debate is the Nicola Sturgeon led vision of it, which appears to have side lined not only the RIC, but also any form of left wing proposals as to which direction Scotland could go in, post-Independence.

I know that folk will argue that the SNP are just a means to an end, and that we (the people) will be able to shape what the country looks like later on, but.....if the starting point is to hand the keys of the kingdom to the bankers, the hedge fund managers, the entrepeneurs etc in the first place, as we know well with the Westminster system, once they have the power its mightily difficult to wrest it back from them. Does Kate Forbes genuinely strike you as a finance minister who is on the side of the 'people'?

So, in total, an Independence campaign which genuinely listened to a left wing vision of what Scotland could be, and that was the proposal from day 1 of it, I am voting Yes again. The big business, multinational pleasing SNP hierarchy of the moment? Until voices can be heard which are more on the side of ordinary people....I will find it difficult to see them as 'just a means to an end'. 

That's not 'puddle drinking lunacy', I would hope, but rather concerns over what the coming debate over Scotland's future means.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Jedi

[Brother Blades]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not a phrase I have used at any point, either in this thread or in 'real life'. My citing the Growth Commission Plan as being right wing in tenor (which it is), is not the same as calling the SNP-'Tories'.

On the red wall issue, the bone of contention seems to be largely that Labour are not proposing to either hold a 2nd EU Referendum, or indeed 'reverse' Brexit at the next GE, rather talking about 'making Brexit work', which is unprincipled as it panders to red wall voters who supported it. In fairness, even the Lib Dems (who if memory serves were drubbed last time for saying they would reverse Brexit), are now also talking about making it work, and building better relations with the EU.

I totally take the point (and agree with it), that both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, and yet were dragged out, and it is natural to seek to redress that.

However, clearly to enter the next election when 2019 was entirely dominated by it, the Tories essentially winning on 'Get Brexit Done', as well as Jeremy Corbyn being too unpopular, it would hand Liz Truss the keys to No.10 for another 5 years now, if Labour were to call for a 2nd Ref, or reversal, if elected. You can call that 'unprincipled', but its a difficult balance to strike...'Make Brexit Work' at the moment is a phrase-we don't yet know how much a Labour govt would try to move closer to the EU if in power (I suspect they would), just like the Lib Dems.

 

As far as I know HoL reform is still very much in the plans, as part of a wider package of devolution, and a potential replacement of the Lords, with a Council of the Isles...which sounds somewhat like FFA for Scotland if so.

Thanks for addressing my points, I do think you are being a little disingenuous about the SNP as a whole & the current governance we have in Scotland. Scotland has a far further left & progressive government than we would have had if we hadn’t been “granted” devolution. What makes you think that it wouldn’t continue on that path after Independence? That’s a genuine question.

As far as the entire red wall argument goes, it’s exactly as I stated, Labour have sold their principles for a chance at power, meanwhile, the SNP have made it centre of their policy to rejoin the EU & only increased their vote as a result. 
So, now we hit the end game, I couldn’t give a f**k what policies will win Labour power in Westminster, because we are fundamentally different countries, if pandering to the racists is the only way to get the railways re-nationalised I’ll just stick with the nationalised railways we already have, but without the racism, thanks very much - same goes for rent-freezes, free higher education, no HoL, increased investment in renewables, etc etc. Oh and free prescriptions & baby boxes. Labour are a shite version of the Tory Party, because they’ve sold their soul. f**k Labour & all who sail in her. 

[williemillersmoustache]

24 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not a phrase I have used at any point, either in this thread or in 'real life'. My citing the Growth Commission Plan as being right wing in tenor (which it is), is not the same as calling the SNP-'Tories'.

On the red wall issue, the bone of contention seems to be largely that Labour are not proposing to either hold a 2nd EU Referendum, or indeed 'reverse' Brexit at the next GE, rather talking about 'making Brexit work', which is unprincipled as it panders to red wall voters who supported it. In fairness, even the Lib Dems (who if memory serves were drubbed last time for saying they would reverse Brexit), are now also talking about making it work, and building better relations with the EU.

I totally take the point (and agree with it), that both Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain, and yet were dragged out, and it is natural to seek to redress that.

However, clearly to enter the next election when 2019 was entirely dominated by it, the Tories essentially winning on 'Get Brexit Done', as well as Jeremy Corbyn being too unpopular, it would hand Liz Truss the keys to No.10 for another 5 years now, if Labour were to call for a 2nd Ref, or reversal, if elected. You can call that 'unprincipled', but its a difficult balance to strike...'Make Brexit Work' at the moment is a phrase-we don't yet know how much a Labour govt would try to move closer to the EU if in power (I suspect they would), just like the Lib Dems.

 

As far as I know HoL reform is still very much in the plans, as part of a wider package of devolution, and a potential replacement of the Lords, with a Council of the Isles...which sounds somewhat like FFA for Scotland if so.

Labour have a 30 point lead and yet you and they are still getting the squirty fear about doing what is best for the country and the people who live here?

f**k Labour as much as the tories. At least they don't pretend to have any principles. 

Take this patronising horseshit in bold. "It's natural to seek to redress that." 

Brexit and the manner in which it was delivered (which Labour voted for post ge2019, and between 2016 and then effectively abandoned the field to the very worst zoomers in far right English politics) fundamentally undermined devolution, required a rewriting of the devolved settlements without our consent and is directly responsible for there being no functioning government in Northern Ireland. 

It's natural to seek to redress that but, no there's no mechanism for that redress because we need the votes of people we helped to persuade that dirty EU migrants were stealing our NHS and have neither the will nor the courage to tell them different.

And any time you fancy discussing immigration and Labour's complete betrayal of business and their own valies, just let me know. 

A plague on both your houses. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by williemillersmoustache

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Jedi said:

 

I know that folk will argue that the SNP are just a means to an end, and that we (the people) will be able to shape what the country looks like later on, but.....if the starting point is to hand the keys of the kingdom to the bankers, the hedge fund managers, the entrepeneurs etc in the first place, as we know well with the Westminster system, once they have the power its mightily difficult to wrest it back from them. 

 

This is puzzling. You don’t want the SNP potentially handing the keys to bankers and big business, because it would then be hard for the Scottish electorate to get them back. You are therefore currently drawn to the UK, which you’ve said has already handed the keys to bankers and big business. Why should we believe Labour (ha!) or any other UK party elected by the home counties will suddenly, this time (honest!), perform the “mighty difficult” act of getting the keys back? 

[Brother Blades]

5 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Incidentally, I am not actually against independence for Scotland. In 2014 I was in favour both of the White Paper proposals, and also, significantly, the input which the likes of the RIC had in the campaign. (and believe it or not there was an all be it overlooked, but I felt, significant Labour for Independence group, as there still is). It felt much more like genuine, left leaning voices were to the fore in the debate of what an Independent Scotland could look like, based on greater communitarian principles.

And yes, I was also against Labour getting into bed with the Tories on the No side. They certainly could and should have run a separate Labour for No ticket instead, and yes, Jim Murphy was an utterly appalling leader (as was Richard Leonard) (and you couldn't find a worse example of the wrong man at the wrong time).

However, where my unease (to say the least) comes from the current Independence debate is the Nicola Sturgeon led vision of it, which appears to have side lined not only the RIC, but also any form of left wing proposals as to which direction Scotland could go in, post-Independence.

I know that folk will argue that the SNP are just a means to an end, and that we (the people) will be able to shape what the country looks like later on, but.....if the starting point is to hand the keys of the kingdom to the bankers, the hedge fund managers, the entrepeneurs etc in the first place, as we know well with the Westminster system, once they have the power its mightily difficult to wrest it back from them. Does Kate Forbes genuinely strike you as a finance minister who is on the side of the 'people'?

So, in total, an Independence campaign which genuinely listened to a left wing vision of what Scotland could be, and that was the proposal from day 1 of it, I am voting Yes again. The big business, multinational pleasing SNP hierarchy of the moment? Until voices can be heard which are more on the side of ordinary people....I will find it difficult to see them as 'just a means to an end'. 

That's not 'puddle drinking lunacy', I would hope, but rather concerns over what the coming debate over Scotland's future means.

This is exactly why Labour diminish continually in Scotland! It’s actually laughable that an argument against independence is “Westminster” ffs! You seem like a fairly intelligent fella & that’s the best you come up with? 
I’m sorry, but it’s a typical Yoon argument, “by gawd, don’t leave your abusive partner” the next guy might be worse. It’s really saddening that left leaning people don’t believe we can make a better fist of things than the UK. I’m being entirely honest about that, I get sad thinking about that. 

[williemillersmoustache]

8 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Incidentally, I am not actually against independence for Scotland. In 2014 I was in favour both of the White Paper proposals, and also, significantly, the input which the likes of the RIC had in the campaign. (and believe it or not there was an all be it overlooked, but I felt, significant Labour for Independence group, as there still is). It felt much more like genuine, left leaning voices were to the fore in the debate of what an Independent Scotland could look like, based on greater communitarian principles.

And yes, I was also against Labour getting into bed with the Tories on the No side. They certainly could and should have run a separate Labour for No ticket instead, and yes, Jim Murphy was an utterly appalling leader (as was Richard Leonard) (and you couldn't find a worse example of the wrong man at the wrong time).

However, where my unease (to say the least) comes from the current Independence debate is the Nicola Sturgeon led vision of it, which appears to have side lined not only the RIC, but also any form of left wing proposals as to which direction Scotland could go in, post-Independence.

I know that folk will argue that the SNP are just a means to an end, and that we (the people) will be able to shape what the country looks like later on, but.....if the starting point is to hand the keys of the kingdom to the bankers, the hedge fund managers, the entrepeneurs etc in the first place, as we know well with the Westminster system, once they have the power its mightily difficult to wrest it back from them. Does Kate Forbes genuinely strike you as a finance minister who is on the side of the 'people'?

So, in total, an Independence campaign which genuinely listened to a left wing vision of what Scotland could be, and that was the proposal from day 1 of it, I am voting Yes again. The big business, multinational pleasing SNP hierarchy of the moment? Until voices can be heard which are more on the side of ordinary people....I will find it difficult to see them as 'just a means to an end'. 

That's not 'puddle drinking lunacy', I would hope, but rather concerns over what the coming debate over Scotland's future means.

Sorry this is puddle drinking lunacy because independence is not about what policies we have post indy, it is the ability to have these policies enacted. Sort of a scribbled crayon level misunderstanding there, to be more generous. 

[Dink]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Massive fleg as the background to the platform....folk behind NS on the platform looking utterly miserable. 

'Independence, Independence, Independence.....democracy, blah, blah..Westminster-horrific.'   'Policies?... Don't need any'

I did watch the 'speech', and thought that was a fair summary

Just off the top of my head there was an announcement on the extension on child poverty payments and I think the opening of new early detection centres for cancer 

[GTG_03]

56 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Nationalising railways

Setting a minimum wage of £15 an hour

Ending zero hours contracts

Placing a Windfall Tax on Energy Companies

Abolishing tuition fees (in England and Wales) and restoring grants

End the state taking 50% off mineworkers pension schemes

Establishing a National Care Service and proper funding for the NHS

Maintaining and ringfencing the top rate of tax for the NHS.

Clamping down on tax avoidance by multinationals and offshore investors

Repeal anti-trade union legislation

National Wealth Fund to provide a start up of £8 billion for renewable energy

Aiming to invest in, and create 1 million green jobs

A National Energy Company which will reinvest any profits in public expenditure on insulation, green energy, recycling etc.

Seriously aiming to achieve net zero by 2030

Insulating all homes which require it across the country to reduce energy bills

Ending automatic evictions for rent arrears, and abolish no fault evictions

Ending the charity status of private schools, and charging them VAT

A domestic abuse register

A Hillsborough Law which would hold public bodies accountable in future.

A significant increase in social housing stock. 

....As a start

 

If I believed labour would implement these policies I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. 

[Brother Blades]

12 minutes ago, GTG_03 said:

If I believed labour would implement these policies I'd vote for them in a heartbeat. 

Why? They’d be repealed by the next 15 years of Tory rule, that’s all we get, a short term of leftism followed by enriching the already rich when Tories get into power, has been the same since the whigs were a force in British politely life. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Brother Blades
Edited for lying, I missed out New Labour. Who were left at all!

[Guest Jedi]

19 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Sorry this is puddle drinking lunacy because independence is not about what policies we have post indy, it is the ability to have these policies enacted. Sort of a scribbled crayon level misunderstanding there, to be more generous. 

Ah both puddle drinking and crayon drawing...Good 'debate' as ever...no actual response other than the droll personal 'I am an intellectual giant compared to you'...it does get old.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Nationalising railways

Setting a minimum wage of £15 an hour

Ending zero hours contracts

Placing a Windfall Tax on Energy Companies

Abolishing tuition fees (in England and Wales) and restoring grants

End the state taking 50% off mineworkers pension schemes

Establishing a National Care Service and proper funding for the NHS

Maintaining and ringfencing the top rate of tax for the NHS.

Clamping down on tax avoidance by multinationals and offshore investors

Repeal anti-trade union legislation

National Wealth Fund to provide a start up of £8 billion for renewable energy

Aiming to invest in, and create 1 million green jobs

A National Energy Company which will reinvest any profits in public expenditure on insulation, green energy, recycling etc.

Seriously aiming to achieve net zero by 2030

Insulating all homes which require it across the country to reduce energy bills

Ending automatic evictions for rent arrears, and abolish no fault evictions

Ending the charity status of private schools, and charging them VAT

A domestic abuse register

A Hillsborough Law which would hold public bodies accountable in future.

A significant increase in social housing stock. 

....As a start

 

Yeah, I don’t see a Starmer led Labour government doing all that.

If the voting intentions in the polls hold up and he’s returned with a huge majority it will be painfully funny watching him not deliver on so many things.

[GiGi]

13 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Ah both puddle drinking and crayon drawing...Good 'debate' as ever...no actual response other than the droll personal 'I am an intellectual giant compared to you'...it does get old.

Actually agree here. I think the SNP either support or have implemented a lot of your policy list already but it's about as civil a discussion as has been had on here from 'opposing' viewpoints for ages. 

[williemillersmoustache]

14 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Actually agree here. I think the SNP either support or have implemented a lot of your policy list already but it's about as civil a discussion as has been had on here from 'opposing' viewpoints for ages. 

I don't know, it does seem like at best rank hypocrisy and more reasonably plain old arguing in bad faith to demand that independence set out how it will create a socialist utopia/workers paradise from the outset and as a prerequisite while the British Labour and Unionist parry demonstrably aren't offering that either. Hence the shortest of short shrift on offer, from me anyway. 

[Brother Blades]

13 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Actually agree here. I think the SNP either support or have implemented a lot of your policy list already but it's about as civil a discussion as has been had on here from 'opposing' viewpoints for ages. 

The main difference is, it’s not Tory trolls that are infecting the forum just for the sake of trolling, @Jedi is actually engaging & I disagree with the puddle drinking / crayon user abuse, no need for that in my opinion, yeah he made a silly post about Sturgeons speech, but other than that, seems a reasonable guy & not trolling. This is where we need to engage & make our argument, no point engaging with DPB or sponge. If we are to win independence, it will be by conversing & engaging with people like Jedi. 
This place is an echo chamber, we need to get out and convince anyone we can that Independence is the best way forward, slagging people who aren’t dyed in the wool unionists is a mistake, I think. 

[Highlandmagar]

2 hours ago, Jedi said:

Nationalising railways

Setting a minimum wage of £15 an hour

Ending zero hours contracts

Placing a Windfall Tax on Energy Companies

Abolishing tuition fees (in England and Wales) and restoring grants

End the state taking 50% off mineworkers pension schemes

Establishing a National Care Service and proper funding for the NHS

Maintaining and ringfencing the top rate of tax for the NHS.

Clamping down on tax avoidance by multinationals and offshore investors

Repeal anti-trade union legislation

National Wealth Fund to provide a start up of £8 billion for renewable energy

Aiming to invest in, and create 1 million green jobs

A National Energy Company which will reinvest any profits in public expenditure on insulation, green energy, recycling etc.

Seriously aiming to achieve net zero by 2030

Insulating all homes which require it across the country to reduce energy bills

Ending automatic evictions for rent arrears, and abolish no fault evictions

Ending the charity status of private schools, and charging them VAT

A domestic abuse register

A Hillsborough Law which would hold public bodies accountable in future.

A significant increase in social housing stock. 

....As a start

 

All whilst wrapping themselves in the Union flag singing God save the king. Labour should be ashamed to call themselves Labour. A Sham of a party.

[GiGi]

34 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

The main difference is, it’s not Tory trolls that are infecting the forum just for the sake of trolling, @Jedi is actually engaging & I disagree with the puddle drinking / crayon user abuse, no need for that in my opinion, yeah he made a silly post about Sturgeons speech, but other than that, seems a reasonable guy & not trolling. This is where we need to engage & make our argument, no point engaging with DPB or sponge. If we are to win independence, it will be by conversing & engaging with people like Jedi. 
This place is an echo chamber, we need to get out and convince anyone we can that Independence is the best way forward, slagging people who aren’t dyed in the wool unionists is a mistake, I think. 

Just to clear it up I agree with you and was agreeing with Jedi. 

[Antlion]

27 minutes ago, Highlandmagar said:

All whilst wrapping themselves in the Union flag singing God save the king. Labour should be ashamed to call themselves Labour. A Sham of a party.

This is the crisis of the Labour Party. They are committed not to persuading people of the benefits of a left wing alternative but to pandering to the hard right, seeing them as the key to power. They want it both ways: they want folk on the left to support them by default and folk on the right to believe they’re hardcore Brexit-loving, immigrant-hating UK Nats.

Any left wing moves they made (if, in reality, they made any) would be incidental to this. We’ve seen, for years, Sir Keir’s Labour simultaneously demonising left wingers and washing Boris Johnson’s balls. Are we expected to forget this and believe that suddenly they’re our benevolent, left-leaning saviours?

Basically, Labour want to present themselves as a centrist party which is cuddlier and friendlier than the current hard-right Tory party. They’ll do nothing to rock the boat too much and they certainly won’t go against the Tory mindset on big issues like Brexit, because they’re desperate to give the right wing what they want rather than dare to suggest that they’re extremist xenophobes.

[GTG_03]

2 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Why? They’d be repealed by the next 15 years of Tory rule, that’s all we get, a short term of leftism followed by enriching the already rich when Tories get into power, has been the same since the whigs were a force in British politely life. 

Yeah I probably worded it poorly. If I thought there was the possibility of lasting change such as the policies above then I'd vote for it. 

However, there's no prospect of a starmer led labour bringing them in and staying in power.