Junior football, what is the future?

[tombrown]

Yes there could be late applications.eos stated if this was to happen it would be put to their members at the a.g.m.next month.

[Jason King]

16 hours ago, GordonS said:

1. Define big boys - for me, the lowest-finishing "big boy" in Scottish football this year was Raith Rovers, there were two "big boys" in L1 and none in L2. If Raith go up there will be no big boys in L1/2 next season.

42 clubs in the SPFL, all big boys compared to the Juniors - well maybe not Albion Rovers.

You want to be stuck in a tiny bubble, fine but you surely realise that said bubble will kill Linlithgow Rose FC and they have to move out of it in the near future if they want to thrive. The money Brechin will make just for not winning a single league game is something like the equivalent of 11 years of winning the Junior Cup and that's not even counting their gate money, sponsorship etc - why would a club like Linlithgow not want to be aiming for that when they and some other top Junior clubs clearly have the potential to be a bigger club.

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, Jason King said:

You want to be stuck in a tiny bubble, fine...

Nah, I'm done with sh*t like this.

[HTG]

22 hours ago, GordonS said:

 

I'm not "starting to ask questions", I know the pyramid is here and it's just a question of when and how.

The desperate rearguard action to feed the ERSJFA directly into the LL parallel to the EoS and SoS isn't what I'd choose either. I've always thought it nuts than Linlithgow Rose weren't in the same branch of football as Spartans, Tranent as Preston Athletic, Arniston as Whitehill Welfare. I'd love a merger at non-league level and I know it would be for the best for everyone.

With the exodus this year I fear we've missed the boat. Will EoS go to two divisions? When the inevitable happens and we make the jump, will that mean we end up going in at Tier7??? I'd hoped us, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg and Kelty at least would stick together and move at the same time - now we're split into three.

My only real objection to the pyramid is how deeply unappealing the bottom two divisions of the SPFL are. But that's now a much smaller risk than sticking in the ERSJFA. It's time to go.

I think the challenge is that it is what it is and there are limits to how much you can influence what those divisions look like.  The option is to constrain your club's ambition to a level you're personally happy with. 

Obviously I'm hypothesising and by "you" I don't necessarily mean you specifically. All the evidence suggests that more people come to watch the team than stop watching them based on average attendances at any club who have moved from regional to national league structure. 

[Ginaro]

20 minutes ago, Jason King said:

You want to be stuck in a tiny bubble, fine but you surely realise that said bubble will kill Linlithgow Rose FC and they have to move out of it in the near future if they want to thrive. The money Brechin will make just for not winning a single league game is something like the equivalent of 11 years of winning the Junior Cup and that's not even counting their gate money, sponsorship etc - why would a club like Linlithgow not want to be aiming for that when they and some other top Junior clubs clearly have the potential to be a bigger club.

More like 20 years - £166,000 for finishing last in the SPFL Championship, £8,000 for the Junior Cup (according to the post by @kefc). Plus an average attendance of 923 (+115.7% on last year).

The talk about Linlithgow takes me back to a month ago, when the chairman was quoted in the local paper as saying "Our ultimate aspiration is to get into the SPFL" and "I think we are a progressive club and we don't want to get left behind". Well, the club don't seem to be doing much to fulfil that aspiration, and if the Juniors don't get in at tier 6 in 2019/20 they will be left behind.

[Guest]

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

[Black Pennel]

Better get the tin helmet on, Goudie...Incoming !!!

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

Dear me, Isa has finally lost it 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Black Pennel said:

Better get the tin helmet on, Goudie...Incoming !!!

No doubt, ma man!

[Che Dail]

21 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

The wolves in the pen will find themselves in the plain?

A bit cryptic this, what does it all mean? You've gone a bit Cantona.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

The wolves in the pen will find themselves in the plain?

A bit cryptic this, what does it all mean? You've gone a bit Cantona.

It's like letting thieves into your house for a cuppa and a blether, before they pounce.

[tombrown]

Look am not saying the pyrimid is perfect.becuase its not!! But its the model both the sfa and the sfl have agreed.mr johnstone has said for the last 5 years his members are not interested.but to be fair the junior F.a.have not come up with anything else please dont be convinced that eos or sos grounds are public parks with ropes and pins thats not the case.the liecence looks at both player comfort and spectator well being. the majority have shelter hot / cold food outlets first aid posts and first aiders at games yes the product might not be as good.but given the clubs from the juniors who have saw the light and wish to try something!!! anything!!! different there is a chance in the future these leagues will be the place to be.and the really big clubs in the juniors set up might have to start at the bottom, that would be a travistay but it would be their own doing.

[santheman]

38 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

Don't worry Isa we're all heading for oblivion anyway apparently so a few red dots is neither here nor there.

I gave you a greenie anyways.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, HTG said:

I think the challenge is that it is what it is and there are limits to how much you can influence what those divisions look like.  The option is to constrain your club's ambition to a level you're personally happy with. 

Obviously I'm hypothesising and by "you" I don't necessarily mean you specifically. All the evidence suggests that more people come to watch the team than stop watching them based on average attendances at any club who have moved from regional to national league structure. 

I don't think any club outside the system has any influence at all and I wouldn't say they should. I've debated this with fans of Forfar and Stirling among others, they're perfectly happy with the set-up so I don't expect it to change. But they're a self-selecting sample - obviously they're more likely to happy with the current set-up, otherwise they wouldn't be going to matches.

I didn't think the pyramid would happen, because I didn't think those in the seniors would make any attempt to appeal to the Juniors, and they haven't. That's why the West are still not interested. I think the only thing that's really appealing to clubs in the East is the prospect of more cash, and now that so many clubs have jumped, it doesn't make sense to stay behind.

As clubs have gone up divisions their attendances have gone up - but how much of that is more away fans because they're among bigger clubs? In Brechin's case it's certainly a lot. For me, if Linlithgow Rose ever made it to a level where they were playing nationwide football I'd be going to fewer away games, and if they were charging upwards of £18 for my daughter and I, I'd probably pick and choose matches. They may well more than replace me with new fans and if that's what most fans want then fine, but it would suck for me and I'm sure some of the poorer old boys would dwindle away too.

[HTG]

19 hours ago, Robert James said:

In 2019/20 there will probably be 4 or 5 EoS 2nd division vacancies at tier 7 . Presumably these vacancies would be advertised and filled by the strongest East juniors who apply to join the EoS next year. If you don't apply, you can't join. 

Two of the Junior Clubs have already stated an intention to join the pyramid in 2019/20, namely Clydebank (EoS unless a WoSL is formed) and Dundonald (after deferring for 1 year regarding preparatory licensing work), which  probably reduces the number of EoS vacancies (at tier 7) to a couple.

That's not the case Robert. The top juniors are entering at tier 6. You can dispute that and you can disagree with it but that's the statement that's been issued by the SJFA. There is a risk that some of it might not look pretty but it's the job of the PWG to sort the aesthetics. So I'd argue that your presumption assumes that the SJFA - a component part of the SFA - is calling this wrong. 

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

The dog barks and the caravan keeps going. Some boy.

[Jason King]

 

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future.

You could say the same about the green dots you have received, a narrow minded cabal who cant see beyond the "grade" and who are unwilling to accept any sort of change to the closed shop they currently reside in. This cabal appear determined to ensure that nothing changes and that crowds continue to dwindle, grounds continue to crumble and that there certainly be no progression opportunities available to all.

But well done to Burnie Man for finally killing the "grade", its something that should have happened a century ago.

[HTG]

16 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I don't think any club outside the system has any influence at all and I wouldn't say they should. I've debated this with fans of Forfar and Stirling among others, they're perfectly happy with the set-up so I don't expect it to change. But they're a self-selecting sample - obviously they're more likely to happy with the current set-up, otherwise they wouldn't be going to matches.

I didn't think the pyramid would happen, because I didn't think those in the seniors would make any attempt to appeal to the Juniors, and they haven't. That's why the West are still not interested. I think the only thing that's really appealing to clubs in the East is the prospect of more cash, and now that so many clubs have jumped, it doesn't make sense to stay behind.

As clubs have gone up divisions their attendances have gone up - but how much of that is more away fans because they're among bigger clubs? In Brechin's case it's certainly a lot. For me, if Linlithgow Rose ever made it to a level where they were playing nationwide football I'd be going to fewer away games, and if they were charging upwards of £18 for my daughter and I, I'd probably pick and choose matches. They may well more than replace me with new fans and if that's what most fans want then fine, but it would suck for me and I'm sure some of the poorer old boys would dwindle away too.

I get all of that. But the cost of a season ticket often produces a lot lower cost per game average and I think that is where clubs see an uptake. There is an expectation of better facilities for the money and a more consistent standard of football. 

I've just read the post from Isa - sakes. If anyone could be arsed to start a conspiracy and run it over a year on a social media platform with such a broad range of interesting characters, good luck to them.  It's quite simple for me.  There are people who are fed up with the junior grade for whatever reason. There are people who don't see the grade as important and just want an integrated non league. There are people who appreciate what junior football offers as a structure and there are people who value the continuation of junior football more highly than even their own club. 

They're all on here and it leads to ferrets fighting in a sack sometimes. 

Tis the way of p&b.

[Jason King]

20 minutes ago, GordonS said:

 For me, if Linlithgow Rose ever made it to a level where they were playing nationwide football I'd be going to fewer away games,

Don't worry mate, not likely to ever happen with your committee.

[superbigal]

That's not the case Robert. The top juniors are entering at tier 6. You can dispute that and you can disagree with it but that's the statement that's been issued by the SJFA. There is a risk that some of it might not look pretty but it's the job of the PWG to sort the aesthetics. So I'd argue that your presumption assumes that the SJFA - a component part of the SFA - is calling this wrong. 

Really I don't remember it being quoted the top juniors. Ready to be corrected.
Certainly "some" of the top juniors should be able to slot in.
Looking at tjs statement it appears to say tier 6 is a starting point for juniors.
So that's Talbot, beith, lochee and broughty sorted at tier 6.
Lithgy and boness and penicuik will naturally slot in at their appropriate starting point of tier 8. Tier 7 if as Robert says there are a few vacancies. [emoji8]