Junior football, what is the future?

[superbigal]

The lowland actually held back places for a season so juniors had 2 bites at cherry

[Goalie Hamish]

3 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said:

No doubt I will get riddled with red dots for this by the usual suspects who seem intent, particularly the original poster, in using a Junior Forum to formulate the demise of Junior Football, in order to promote their very tinted vision for the future. There is something really underhand about this thread, started with a particular agenda and readily backed up by a group who disregard any pro Junior stance as Jurassic backward thinking. Refusing to accept any point that would suggest that all in the pyramid is not well. Sorry, but is it only me that thinks this whole thread reeks of collaboration to conspire? The propensity to continuously highlight flaws within a grade, and refusal to accept any pros, all part of the strategy and the deceit. Friends, we really do have a situation where the wolves have parked themselves, well and truly, in the sheep pen. My prediction, the wolves in the pen will eventually find themselves  in the big plains starving and realise, they're not wolves at all. But sadly, they will have taken us all with them.

Oh ya stoater this is peak Isa!   Burnie shot JFK, Jason King is actually Lord Lucan, HTG flew the remote control planes into the Twin Towers and the Camelon and Bonnyrigg committees are controlled by the Illuminati (they love a Pyramid), meanwhile Hill of Beath’s park is the entrance tae a secret alien underworld (that could be true actually).   This post need preserved for future generations its as a classic!!! 

[Sunrise]

 

 

Aware I’m going aff oan a tangent here, but it wasn’t long ago you were saying Lossiemouth under-recorded the crowd against Talbot in the Scottish Cup, on the basis one of their officials grinned when he reported the attendance. So, yeah, you do take crowds a bit too seriously even by my standards...

[Ginaro]

28 minutes ago, gwd440 said:

So, if we were to rewind 5 years and create an alternative reality using a bit of hindsight, could we have ended up with something like:

SFA: We want to create a Lowland League with promotion to SFL2. We'll accept applications from the EoS, SoS, SJFA and anyone else who can satisfy various criteria. The league will start in 2013-14.

SJFA: That's a bit soon for us.  Leave it a year and we'll get back to you.

SFA: Fair enough, we'll start in 2014-15

Knowing the mess we have now, could it have been that simple? - 4 teams from the EoS, ERJFA, WRJFA and a couple from the SoS.

The initial line up could have been (using the 2013-14 league tables):

Spartans, University of Stirling, Whitehall Welfare, Edinburgh City, Dalbeattie Star, Threave Rovers, Auchinleck Talbot, Irvine Meadow, Hurlford Utd, Clydebank, Bo'ness Utd, Linlithgow Rose, Bonnyrigg Rose, Newtongrange Star.

Then a re-alignment in the West, with the SoS feeding into the Juniors somewhere, and some sort of merger in the East.  Wow, there's your pyramid!

The SFA gave LL clubs until May 2015 to become fully licensed members.  In your scenario would the Junior clubs have been able to get a license either in time for the start of season 15-16?

[energyzone]

To give Goudie his due, I interpret his posts as not being against pyramids as such, but against the one we've got which has the wrong teams in it (ex EoS etc) and the wrong destination for successful clubs (national leagues of 10 playing x4).
However, we're not likely to get regionalised leagues instead of L1/2 and the EoS sides are there for the time it takes for them to filter down (or rise up) so as the old saying goes, you p*** with the c*** you've been given! [emoji38]

The thing is, the pyramid as it is is nowhere near perfect, but in the event of a WOS league being created and every non league club in the country being part of the same system, it would only take several years for things to even themselves out. For a grade that has been in existence well over a century, it's not really that long to iron everything out.

[Goalie Hamish]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

God, I might have known you would come back with the same old clichéd platitude ridden response. Right, crumbling grounds? Beechwood Park, Meadow Park, Newlandsfield, Portland Park, Townhead Park, Prestonfield,  Belldale, Loch Park, Newton Park, jeez I could go on responding to this tired inaccurate piece of misinformation continually churned out. Crowds dwindling? Well they aren't what they were in the 80s  all round but compared to the EOS and LL league etc they're positively booming. This is my point, you and your like minded group are attempting a hatchet job from within continuing the raison d'être drip feeding sh!te,  the contempt you display for this 158 club strong grade does truly illustrate your agenda.

Im now worried Isa believes this and its no a wind up

[santheman]

8 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

Oh ya stoater this is peak Isa!   Burnie shot JFK, Jason King is actually Lord Lucan, HTG flew the remote control planes into the Twin Towers and the Camelon and Bonnyrigg committees are controlled by the Illuminati (they love a Pyramid), meanwhile Hill of Beath’s park is the entrance tae a secret alien underworld (that could be true actually).   This post need preserved for future generations its as a classic!!! 

Aye but where do the chuckle brothers (aka you and yer wee brither) fit in

[Goalie Hamish]

2 minutes ago, santheman said:

Aye but where do the chuckle brothers (aka you and yer wee brither) fit in

I'd need to kill you if I told you min, and I dinnae like violence

[drs]

Away from the conspiracies (I faked the moon landings btw) - does the EoS cooling off period end tomorrow?

[gwd440]

11 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

The SFA gave LL clubs until May 2015 to become fully licensed members.  In your scenario would the Junior clubs have been able to get a license either in time for the start of season 15-16?

Well if they had delayed the start of the LL by one year, my guess is that the deadline would a shifted a year too. I've just lifted a top 8 junior clubs by league position, but if not those 8, I'm sure there were 8 clubs in a position to be licensed by May 2016, as long as they avoided the £100K toilet blocks.

[Goalie Hamish]

8 minutes ago, drs said:

Away from the conspiracies (I faked the moon landings btw)

b*****d! all my childhood heroes destroyed

[cmontheloknow]

I do also believe Juniors clubs were put off applying for LL because there was no clear pathway back should they have dropped out - Threave resigned from LL (did they not?) and rejoined the SoS. A Junior club doing same would face a 4 division relegation (if ERSJFA or old Central) if they were asked to start at the bottom. This still is not resolved and seems like it won't be until the PWG get everything resolved (or otherwise!)

Edited May 2, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

I do also believe Juniors clubs were put off applying for LL because there was no clear pathway back should they have dropped out - Threave resigned from LL (did they not?) and rejoined the SoS. A Junior club doing same would face a 4 division relegation (if ERSJFA or old Central) if they were asked to start at the bottom. This still is not resolved and seems like it won't be until the PWG get everything resolved (or otherwise!)

This is an important point. In a LL of the 16/18 best non-league teams in Scotland, if Linlithgow Rose had a season like last season - and everyone has one of them now and then - they'd probably have been relegated. Until now the EoS has been a long way behind the ER Premier and a long, long way behind the ER Super. A choice between the EoS and the ER South would have been crazy. Of course, from next season that all changes anyway as the EoS will be hugely stronger.

[Robert James]

6 hours ago, HTG said:

That's not the case Robert. The top juniors are entering at tier 6. You can dispute that and you can disagree with it but that's the statement that's been issued by the SJFA. There is a risk that some of it might not look pretty but it's the job of the PWG to sort the aesthetics. So I'd argue that your presumption assumes that the SJFA - a component part of the SFA - is calling this wrong. 

You may be right, as I have no inside information as to the macinations of the SJFA or the SFA/PWG.

One thing is certain however is that the EoSL has the right to advertise vacancies, and will undoubtedly continue to do so into the future. Clubs decide whether they wish to apply, regardless as to whether they are Members of the SJFA, the Scottish Amateur FA, or the Scottish Welfare FA, etc........ The PWG will have a challenging brief.

[Roker Rover]

On 01/05/2018 at 21:06, G4Mac said:

I would assume the sos would remain as it is at tier 6, no need for any integration. West is an open goal to be honest, no natural tier 6 and the juniors ready to pounce.... I say go for it as it makes sense. As we have all already discussed the more difficult position is the East. The ersjfa would want to be on a par with the eos, but for me they missed the chance for this a while back and the eos and LL won't do away with the eos for the juniors to get priority. (don't forget most of the teams in the LL are former eos teams and still maintain influence and work closely with those in the eos). 

That's the difficulty here, the East, not the west. To be honest if they ran both eos leagues and the East super at the same level and had playoff style games at the end of the season I think I'd be okay with that... But that's just me :-) 

As an outsider this is the sort of muddled thinking that I just don't get (and I don't think anyone down here would). If you are going to join the pyramid then why does there have to still be an EOSL and a Junior equivalent alongside it? Surely all the clubs go into the pot and its run by whoever? Why are people so determined to hang onto the old tags? What does it matter in the great scheme of things? You are all football fans and supporters of football teams. Its much like bloody Christians aligning themselves with one group or another then having a go at the other group of bloody Christians who have the temerity to align themselves with the other lot. The peoples front of Judea and the Judean peoples front comes to mind and to be frank, most outsiders are either bemused or amused. I am both.

We had a situation down here a few years back. We have the Wearside League (which despite its name actually covers County Durham, Cleveland and parts of North Yorkshire as well as some clubs in Cumbria which is a huge area and feeds into the Northern League alongside the Northern Alliance which is mainly Tyneside and Northumberland clubs. The Wearside League and the Northern Alliance are equal in status and both feed into the Northern League Division Two subject to ground grading and both go all the way back to the very early days of the game in Britain and the split is pretty much the Tyne. If you are North of it its Northern Alliance and if you are South you are Wearside League. Both leagues have had Cumbrian sides and still do. Northbank Carlisle are in the Alliance and Windscale are in the Wearside.  We also had the Durham Alliance sitting below the Wearside league (and the equivalent Teesside League which is another story in itself)  but as its the very bottom of the pyramid the promotion/relegation link is not guaranteed and the paths from one to the other were not exactly clear cut and not dictated by the FA centrally as they are higher up the pyramid. Promotion was not only on ground grading but also by vote and the classic turkeys voting for Christmas often took effect as the Wearside league would protect its own against newcomers and only took in other clubs when they lost members or the newcomer was particularly strong.  Both leagues had their own committees and neither wanted much to do with the other. The Durham Alliance then suffered a catastrophic loss of clubs going from about 16 teams down to 5 or 6 the season before last. A few new teams were enticed in but proved to be completely noncompetitive and we had a season of 20+ 0 results and then had additional contrived group cups being set up just to give teams more than 10 league games. The Durham FA stepped in and suggested that the Durham Alliance be absorbed into the Wearside league as a development division with under age teams from the bigger more established sides in the Wearside League. This was rejected by both Committees and the Durham Alliance is running this season with 9 clubs and is still lopsided in standard and still struggling as a shadow of what it once was.

Finally next season, common sense has prevailed and the merger will take place which will be good for both leagues. It needed certain people to step down before it happened though. The aforementioned Teesside League was also brought under the control of the North Riding FA at the start of this season and is now the North Riding League. Sometimes you just need to forget your own little empire and look at the bigger picture. Having four grades of football in one tiny country makes zero sense and nobody would argue that it does. Professional and amateur is a given, but then splitting your amateurs into categories on (what basis I don't even know) and then never playing against each other is utter madness.  I realise its an accident of history and that history is important but seriously? Four grades of the same sport in one small country? Really?

There is no way you would set your system up like this if it was starting now, so why continue with it just because that's what you have always done?

It feels to me from what I am reading on here that the penny is finally starting to drop and I hope it does as you ALL need to sing from the same hymn sheet as you don't really have enough voices (or songwriters) to be competing for the best song.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Roker Rover

[Jock Tamson]

Tried to find a link that gives the criteria for joining EoS but no luck.

Can anyone help?

If, what I read about the the Tay Road Bridge being the cut off point is true. . . Where does this leave Broughty Athletic, Lochee Utd, and Carnoustie? Is there definitely no way in to the EoS?

If not, what's the story on a NoS league? Or, would it mean a merger of sorts with The Highland League?

Apologies if all these questions have been answered before but I'm playing catch up on this subject.

Thanks in advance .

Jock

[Ginaro]

19 minutes ago, Jock Tamson said:

Tried to find a link that gives the criteria for joining EoS but no luck.

Can anyone help?

If, what I read about the the Tay Road Bridge being the cut off point is true. . . Where does this leave Broughty Athletic, Lochee Utd, and Carnoustie? Is there definitely no way in to the EoS?

If not, what's the story on a NoS league? Or, would it mean a merger of sorts with The Highland League?

Don't think there is published criteria for joining the EoS, although the application form asked questions about the ground being enclosed, spectator barrier, etc. http://www.eosfl.com/downloads/eosfl/Application-for-Membership-East-of-Scotland-League.docx

The Tay Bridge is the dividing line between the Highland and Lowland Leagues for teams who get relegated from the SPFL. Presumably the same applies for teams who get promoted from tier 6, as it wouldn't make sense for the Tayside clubs to join the EoS but then have to play in the HL if promoted.

It's all speculation/conjecture for what's happening below the HL - the easiest solution might be to add the Tayside clubs to the North Juniors at tier 6, and then regionalise north/south below that.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Ginaro

[Jock Tamson]

Don't think there is published criteria for joining the EoS, although the application form asked questions about the ground being enclosed, spectator barrier, etc. http://www.eosfl.com/downloads/eosfl/Application-for-Membership-East-of-Scotland-League.docx
The Tay Bridge is the dividing line between the Highland and Lowland Leagues for teams who get relegated from the SPFL. Presumably the same applies for teams who get promoted from tier 6, so it wouldn't make sense for the Tayside clubs to join the EoS but then have to play in the HL if promoted.
It's all speculation/conjecture for what's happening below the HL - the easiest solution might be to add the Tayside clubs to the North Juniors at tier 6, and then regionalise north/south below that.

Thanks for that.

Interesting times.

[Guest]

Rocker rover in response, I was simply attempting to resolve the issue of the East... I thought my post was clear enough but maybe not... Sometimes what is clear to me isn't to others. The reason you keep the eosfl is because it is the current feeder for tier 5 in the East and the clubs in it committed to the pyramid long ago, you can't assume those clubs would just step aside because someone else now wants their place.... This would be like turning up to a party late and attempting to tell the dj what songs to play. 

The west is an open goal for me and should be progressed so we have the eosfl, wosfl and sosfl feeding the LL. With little work required. And sadly because of all the associations and closed clubs formed for years in a dark smoky rooms where self protectionism was rife muddled is what we have to look forward to until it is all evened out in 10 years time. 

The problem is that some juniors will want to move regardless, some will want placed at the top of the leagues and others will want to stay junior (which is fine) as I said muddled is what we have and where this headed after initial attempts to progress non league football didn't get 100%buy in across the associations.

I do think though that a full and integrated pyramid from amateur to Pro is the way forward, but there are too many moving parts for this to be as easy and straight forward as you think it must be...

[eamonn]

just dont know