Junior football, what is the future?

[the rambler]

As a long time Junior supporter and after reading 350 pages of (debate) if I am asked by my Club to vote on joining the pyramid or remaining Junior what do I need to know to make an informed decision?

For me I like that games are...

Local and I dont need to travel far to watch my team play away from home.

Affordable, for entry and catering.

I can watch games from wherever in the ground and have a bit of banter with opposing fans, no segregation or trouble.

I can have a pint next to or in the ground.

The games are generally competitive.

If the season is mid table there is always a run in the Scottish Cup or local Cups to generate some interest.

What could be better...

Facilities could be better at a lot of grounds but will take a considerable amount of cash to improve them. Cash that isnt readily available.

The Scottish Cup takes precedence over everything, the time allowed to play ties is ridiculous and costs Clubs much needed finance through losing weeks of Saturdays and then cramming in midweek games at the end of the season. Not only that can seriously affect chances of promotion through playing catch up. To ask guys with a full time job to play 3 times a week is too much.

Fixture scheduling isnt nearly good enough. The fixtures Secretary has a tough job to accomodate fixture backlogs caused by the Scottish Cup and bad weather, exacerbated by Clubs with pitches that dont drain. However, more notice needs to be given to allow Clubs to market fixtures, sell hospitality etc. To be told your next fixture with less than a weeks notice just isnt good enough. Clubs have to apply for bar licenses and need sufficient time.

For me the Scottish Cup needs to be addressed. Start earlier, schedule up to first week in November if no result by the following week then reschedule for the first week in March.

What are the benefits for me as a supporter for my Club joining the pyramid? For most Clubs nothing much will change only a few will likely progress further than their current region and this will take some time. So for the foreseeable future Clubs will be playing the same teams in their region.

Will facilities improve? For some Clubs as they progress and licensing requirements demand better standards they will. For most they wont as there wont be the same onus on them to comply.

Will there be a national cup competition? I havent read anywhere on this thread whether there will be or not. I would like to think that there would and if there is it has to be run much more efficiently and for the benefit of member clubs than it is now.

Who will administer the pyramid and the regions therein? I havent read how these will be run so cant make an assessment on whether administration will be better or not.

Will the pyramid attract more and better sponsorship? I would hope so as current sponsorship of Junior competitions is sparse to say the least. Hiring or making use of advertising and promotional professionals has to be better than we have now.

Will fixture scheduling be better? Could it be any worse given the factors that currently affect fixture scheduling. These must be addressed to have any chance of improvement. 

Will there be more funding available for ground improvements, youth development and coaching from the SFA? Kelty tell us there is but surely this will be severely diluted adding 160 Clubs to the existing framework.

On balance, integration of all Junior Clubs is probably the way to go. What I would hate to see is a fractured way forward with some Clubs remaining Junior and others leaving. Surely much better to integrate together?

Apologies for the epistle.

 

 

 

 

[heedthebaa]

@Isabel Goudie you are my most favourist poster ever on p+b, never waver, never change. You can never have enough laughter in your life you know. This is only the beginning my friend, imagine when the next phase in the pyramid saga happens and it will happen, what you going to be like 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 hours ago, HTG said:

You did. And you've been accommodated at a higher level than you might have expected given that there were already 13 tier 6 clubs in situ. 

It really isn't beyond the authorities to make this work. As has been said on here before, it's inconceivable that the SJFA (and SFA for that matter) can line up the juniors but stick some clubs two tiers down purely as a result of geography. 

We are joining at a time in bulk couldn't do that every year or you would have parallel league for 20 years as you lot fart about

[AlanCamelonfan]

21 minutes ago, the rambler said:

As a long time Junior supporter and after reading 350 pages of (debate) if I am asked by my Club to vote on joining the pyramid or remaining Junior what do I need to know to make an informed decision?

For me I like that games are...

Local and I dont need to travel far to watch my team play away from home.

Affordable, for entry and catering.

I can watch games from wherever in the ground and have a bit of banter with opposing fans, no segregation or trouble.

I can have a pint next to or in the ground.

The games are generally competitive.

If the season is mid table there is always a run in the Scottish Cup or local Cups to generate some interest.

What could be better...

Facilities could be better at a lot of grounds but will take a considerable amount of cash to improve them. Cash that isnt readily available.

The Scottish Cup takes precedence over everything, the time allowed to play ties is ridiculous and costs Clubs much needed finance through losing weeks of Saturdays and then cramming in midweek games at the end of the season. Not only that can seriously affect chances of promotion through playing catch up. To ask guys with a full time job to play 3 times a week is too much.

Fixture scheduling isnt nearly good enough. The fixtures Secretary has a tough job to accomodate fixture backlogs caused by the Scottish Cup and bad weather, exacerbated by Clubs with pitches that dont drain. However, more notice needs to be given to allow Clubs to market fixtures, sell hospitality etc. To be told your next fixture with less than a weeks notice just isnt good enough. Clubs have to apply for bar licenses and need sufficient time.

For me the Scottish Cup needs to be addressed. Start earlier, schedule up to first week in November if no result by the following week then reschedule for the first week in March.

What are the benefits for me as a supporter for my Club joining the pyramid? For most Clubs nothing much will change only a few will likely progress further than their current region and this will take some time. So for the foreseeable future Clubs will be playing the same teams in their region.

Will facilities improve? For some Clubs as they progress and licensing requirements demand better standards they will. For most they wont as there wont be the same onus on them to comply.

Will there be a national cup competition? I havent read anywhere on this thread whether there will be or not. I would like to think that there would and if there is it has to be run much more efficiently and for the benefit of member clubs than it is now.

Who will administer the pyramid and the regions therein? I havent read how these will be run so cant make an assessment on whether administration will be better or not.

Will the pyramid attract more and better sponsorship? I would hope so as current sponsorship of Junior competitions is sparse to say the least. Hiring or making use of advertising and promotional professionals has to be better than we have now.

Will fixture scheduling be better? Could it be any worse given the factors that currently affect fixture scheduling. These must be addressed to have any chance of improvement. 

Will there be more funding available for ground improvements, youth development and coaching from the SFA? Kelty tell us there is but surely this will be severely diluted adding 160 Clubs to the existing framework.

On balance, integration of all Junior Clubs is probably the way to go. What I would hate to see is a fractured way forward with some Clubs remaining Junior and others leaving. Surely much better to integrate together?

Apologies for the epistle.

 

 

 

 

The lowland eosfl sosfl complete in South challenge cup which you get expenses for travelling. The unlicensed clubs play in alex jack cup which the winners play south of scotland winners for a Scottish cup place

[Shandon Par]

4 hours ago, Che Dail said:

See this monkey and the organ grinder - isn't that a scene from the Pink Panther?

Clouseau: "Do you have a lee-cense, for the minkey?"

The minkey is a businessman. He doesn't tell me what to play and I don't tell him what to do with his money. 

[santheman]

What this thread needs is more spreadsheets.

[gaz5]

Decided to try and put a bit of meat to the bones of how an integrated set-up in the East may pan out for season 2019/20 and move the conversation away from monkeys.  This could be way off the mark as there is a 101 ways to go about integrating the leagues, and also I had to make a number of assumptions and guesses;

• Top 6 in each EoS section next season are guaranteed a top division place, with Dundonald added, for 2019/20, the remaining 3 vacancies to be filled by top 3 Junior Superleague from Lothians/Fife.
• Two places for LL up for grabs, Bonnyrigg and Hill of Beath win the play-offs in 2018/19, Gala and Vale of Leithen are relegated (sorry)
• ERJFA is dissolved and all clubs move to EoS
• Tayside and Perthshire clubs are not included and integrate with the North.

The EoS First Division for 2019/20 could therefore look like;
Gala Fairydean Rovers (relegated LL)
Vale of Leithen (relegated LL)
Dundonald Bluebell (deferred application)
Camelon Juniors  (top 6 2018/19)
Musselburgh Ath (top 6 2018/19)
Haddington Ath (top 6 2018/19)
Blackburn United (top 6 2018/19)
Tranent Juniors (top 6 2018/19)
Dalkeith Thistle (top 6 2018/19)
Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale (top 6 2018/19)
Leith Athletic (top 6 2018/19)
Preston Athletic (top 6 2018/19)
Edinburgh United (top 6 2018/19)
Linlithgow Rose (top 3 Superleague)
Penicuik Athletic (top 3 Superleague)
Bo’ness United (top 3 Superleague)
The remaining EoS members plus the Lothians and Fife newcomers split into 3 equal sections of 13 or 14 clubs for 2019/20, with the winners of each section replacing the three bottom clubs in the First Division for 2020/21. The next 4 finishers in each section (12) plus the 3 relegated clubs form the Second Division (plus one via best 6th placed or something) to form a 16 team league.  There would then be 3 up/down between First and Second Division.  That would leave circa 24 clubs to form two regional divisions at tier 8 (or Third and Fourth Divisions at tier 8 and 9), with vacancies for new clubs eg Musselburgh Windsor, St.Bernards etc.
So for 2020/21 you have an EoS First Division of 16 clubs with top 2 entering LL play-offs, bottom three relegated. EoS Second Division of 16 clubs with top 3 promoted and bottom 2/3/4 relegated depending on set-up of the lower two divisions. 2-3 seasons from 2019/2020 most clubs will have found their level, and some will have made their way into the LL.
Whether any of that (or something similar) could be negotiated by the PWG in time for the SJFA EGM I have my doubts, but if so it does provide the opportunity for current Superleague clubs who aren’t moving, to enter at tier 6 for 2019/20.

I honestly think the fairest thing to do is the ERSJFA was coming in for 2019/20 works be a similar setup to what they are looking at this year, so that no clubs are disadvantaged, then run that each year one level down if you really want a linear structure.

So, 2018/19 run two parallel leagues at tier 6, seeding the divisions on form/league grin the previous seasons. All teams have a chance at promotion. 26 teams currently, final number not known till June

Season 19/20
Assume 26 teams but tweak for whatever number it ends up:

ERSJFA moves over, minus the North of the Tay teams as they head north to HL territory. The Superleague teams and as many others from the regions as required to make 3 parallel leagues of 16. 48 teams. Seed it again and create 3 conferences based on performance, all other teams fall in below in a single division. All teams compete for promotion via conferences and end of season playoff.

Means no current EoS team penalised by new teams "hopping" them and that the top Juniors can also come in at the same level, rather than have to come in through a league below (which we would all concede would be far did the big sides). Then everyone plays for position based on merit and ALL teams are mixed up/integrated straight away (no Junior/EoS divide).

I have to say, I like the two conference idea at the top of EoS, so personally I would say top 9 in the 3 conferences, plus top 3 from league below, plus a playoff between the 3 teams in 10th make up your two conferences (32) for 20/21, with everyone else in a single league below that.

Then every season the 2 conferences are seeded at the start of the year, meaning its rarely ever the same teams in the same configuration (keeping it interesting) with end season playoffs for winners/promotion at both ends also adding interest.

I realise traditionalists will say "that's upside down, it should be one league splitting out into 2 or more", which it is, but if you put so many decent clubs looking to progress into the same pot and have then ask playing against each other regularly in different configurations, that I think would be genuinely interesting.

I'm not a subscriber to the old "there must be one single top league" thinking. It's like something new that captures the imagination. I'm really looking forward to next year for that reason, I thin the two conferences and playoffs is a great idea.

[heedthebaa]

3 minutes ago, santheman said:

What this thread needs is more spreadsheets.

Most of it has been typed with a fist, it’s just glorious, leave it be 

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

 

 

I honestly think the fairest thing to do is the ERSJFA was coming in for 2019/20 works be a similar setup to what they are looking at this year, so that no clubs are disadvantaged, then run that each year one level down if you really want a linear structure.

So, 2018/19 run two parallel leagues at tier 6, seeding the divisions on form/league grin the previous seasons. All teams have a chance at promotion. 26 teams currently, final number not known till June

Season 19/20
Assume 26 teams but tweak for whatever number it ends up:

ERSJFA moves over, minus the North of the Tay teams as they head north to HL territory. The Superleague teams and as many others from the regions as required to make 3 parallel leagues of 16. 48 teams. Seed it again and create 3 conferences based on performance, all other teams fall in below in a single division. All teams compete for promotion via conferences and end of season playoff.

Means no current EoS team penalised by new teams "hopping" them and that the top Juniors can also come in at the same level, rather than have to come in through a league below (which we would all concede would be far did the big sides). Then everyone plays for position based on merit and ALL teams are mixed up/integrated straight away (no Junior/EoS divide).

I have to say, I like the two conference idea at the top of EoS, so personally I would say top 9 in the 3 conferences, plus top 3 from league below, plus a playoff between the 3 teams in 10th make up your two conferences (32) for 20/21, with everyone else in a single league below that.

Then every season the 2 conferences are seeded at the start of the year, meaning its rarely ever the same teams in the same configuration (keeping it interesting) with end season playoffs for winners/promotion at both ends also adding interest.

I realise traditionalists will say "that's upside down, it should be one league splitting out into 2 or more", which it is, but if you put so many decent clubs looking to progress into the same pot and have then ask playing against each other regularly in different configurations, that I think would be genuinely interesting.

I'm not a subscriber to the old "there must be one single top league" thinking. It's like something new that captures the imagination. I'm really looking forward to next year for that reason, I thin the two conferences and playoffs is a great idea.

 

Fair ideas with merit although I'm not a fan at all of "conferences", fair enough for next season to give everyone a fair crack at the whip but from then on you need to have ability to move up and down leagues based on form, promotion and relegation is the lifeblood of the game, that's a Pyramid.

Give next seasons teams the carrot of a top division spot by finishing in the top 5 or 6 with room left for new applicants for 2019/20 to go straight in at that level as a negotiating point, then those who don't qualify enter a second season of conferences along with the remaining newcomers to decide how everything pans out for 2020/2021.  After that the conference idea should be binned IMO and everyone plays in something resembling the current East Junior structure, ie two region wide divisions with two regional below.

Lots of different options though, that's just something I prefer to see, and it needs to resemble the structure which might prevail in the West IMO.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Burnie_man

[honestly united]

If the juniors are insisting on keeping their local leagues for local people, and not to encroach on the leagues already part of the senior pyramid, a bit of clever renaming and setting up of boundaries and you could have the following set up for Tier 6. Obviously you could have a bit of blurring at the edges and swapping leagues to keep a balance depending on promotions and relegations

EoS - Sticks to Borders, Edinburgh, East, Mid and West Lothian, Falkirk, Clackmannanshire and Fife plus clubs in Perth and Kinross below the cut off

SoS - D&G, South and East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire

Central League - North Ayrshire, East Renfrewshire, Refrewshire, Inverclyde, North Lanarkshire, Glasgow, East & West Dunbartonshire, Stirling and the southern part of Argyll and Bute

That way the Ayrshire teams could keep up their local rivalaries and the junior teams in west lothian could remain with their junior friends.

You would then have a

North east - covering Dundee, Aberdeen (and shire), Perth, Moray and Angus

NCL - Highlands & Islands & Argyll and Bute

Feeding into the Highland league.

Its hardly complicated, we just need someone to take cherge

[Khufu2]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Decided to try and put a bit of meat to the bones of how an integrated set-up in the East may pan out for season 2019/20 and move the conversation away from monkeys.  This could be way off the mark as there is a 101 ways to go about integrating the leagues, and also I had to make a number of assumptions and guesses;

• Top 6 in each EoS section next season are guaranteed a top division place, with Dundonald added, for 2019/20, the remaining 3 vacancies to be filled by top 3 Junior Superleague from Lothians/Fife.
• Two places for LL up for grabs, Bonnyrigg and Hill of Beath win the play-offs in 2018/19, Gala and Vale of Leithen are relegated (sorry)
• ERJFA is dissolved and all clubs move to EoS
• Tayside and Perthshire clubs are not included and integrate with the North.

The EoS First Division for 2019/20 could therefore look like;

Gala Fairydean Rovers (relegated LL)

Vale of Leithen (relegated LL)

Dundonald Bluebell (deferred application)

Camelon Juniors  (top 6 2018/19)

Musselburgh Ath (top 6 2018/19)

Haddington Ath (top 6 2018/19)

Blackburn United (top 6 2018/19)

Tranent Juniors (top 6 2018/19)

Dalkeith Thistle (top 6 2018/19)

Lothian Thistle Hutchison Vale (top 6 2018/19)

Leith Athletic (top 6 2018/19)

Preston Athletic (top 6 2018/19)

Edinburgh United (top 6 2018/19)

Linlithgow Rose (top 3 Superleague)

Penicuik Athletic (top 3 Superleague)

Bo’ness United (top 3 Superleague)

Alternatively you start by creating  the second Lowland League starting in 2019-20 -with  teams given a year to achieve licensing (similar to the creation of the current Lowland League) with applications invited as per current Lowland League and the most suitable clubs elected as per current Lowland League.

You could create two divisions something like this:

 

Lowland East

Spartans

Selkirk

Civil Service Strollers

Kelty 

Edinburgh Uni

Whitehill

Gala

Cowdenbeath (!)

Bonnyrigg (EOS)

LTHV (EOS)

Hill of Beath ((EOS)

Dundonald (EOS)

Bo'ness (ERJ)

Broxburn (ERJ)

Linlithgow (ERJ)

Pencuik  (ERJ)

 

 

Lowland West

East Kilbride

BSC Glasgow

Cumbernauld Colts

Stirling Uni

East Stirlingshire

Edusport Academy

Gretna

Dalbeattie

Auchinleck (WRJ)

Pollok (WRJ)

Petershill (WRJ)

Cumnock (WRJ)

Beith (WRJ)

Kilwinning (WRJ)

Clydebank (WRJ)

Glenafton (WRJ)

 

[Cyclizine]

There's no chance we'll be seeing three leagues at level 5 in the near future, there's just not enough licenced teams at the moment, even if it does make sense geographically. Levels 6 and under need optimised first, with some sort of beefed up SoSFL or new WoSFL starting up in the West. Once there's a good number of licenced teams then splitting the Lowland region could come onto the table, otherwise there's not a chance the SPFL and SFA will go for it.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Cyclizine

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, Khufu2 said:

Alternatively you start by creating  the second Lowland League starting in 2019-20 -with  teams given a year to achieve licensing (similar to the creation of the current Lowland League) with applications invited as per current Lowland League and the most suitable clubs elected as per current Lowland League.

Until the Juniors have joined the pyramid in bulk we're not likely to see Tier 5 ripped up. You'd also struggle to use licencing as a criteria by 2019-20 as you'd have well in excess of the numbers required for 2 leagues. So it wouldn't be a good enough criteria to judge applicants on.

EDIT: The Lowland League area already has 27 licenced members. Throw in LTHV, the 13 joining the EoS this year, Dundonald & Clydebank with their deferred applications to get into licencing shape. Plus other EoS/SoS clubs.  Licencing by itself is no longer a strong enough to be placed at Tier 5 in the Lowland, it's going to have to be done on the field from the pyramid leagues below.

Edited May 9, 2018 by FairWeatherFan
adding number of licences.

[Ginaro]

3 hours ago, the rambler said:

As a long time Junior supporter and after reading 350 pages of (debate) if I am asked by my Club to vote on joining the pyramid or remaining Junior what do I need to know to make an informed decision?

What could be better...

<snip long quote>

Facilities - would surely improve for clubs looking to get an SFA licence and/or move up to the Lowland League. Could have tougher minimum standards for tier 6 in the future. Might mean some clubs have to spend less on the field, but once improvements are made it's a level playing field again.

Fixtures - the East of Scotland League produced an almost full set of fixtures for this season in July: https://twitter.com/KeltyHeartsFC/status/884751965758029824  - might be a bit harder with more teams but even if it was fixtures until the new year that would still be better than the Juniors.

Administration - in the east, don't see why the East of Scotland FA couldn't run the three or four leagues required if all teams were in the pyramid.

Funding - it would probably be diluted, but anything would be better than what the Juniors currently get. However any dilution could be offset if a fixture list helps bring in fans and sells more hospitality, or if an integrated pyramid attracts more publicity and sponsors.

Sponsorship - moving to marketing it as non-league rather than Junior might attract more sponsors, fixtures in advance also helps you plan sponsors lunches (rugby clubs in Scotland get a full set of fixtures which helps a lot with this).

Scottish (non-league/Junior) Cup - depends on what the remaining SJFA members want to do, but it could be turned into a non-league trophy for all teams outside the SPFL. Like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–18_FA_Trophy format - regionalise it for the first round, and add tier 5 teams at a later stage.

Pyramid benefits - the same as being in the current Junior pyramid, you get promotion/relegation but with the chance to go higher if you win the Superleague. A full pyramid would be much clearer for fans to understand and you wouldn't have the archaic Senior/Junior distinction.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Ginaro

[Guest]

2 hours ago, gogsy said:

 You're that much of a raging mess that you just cant help yourself.

How so? 

[santheman]

4 hours ago, santheman said:

What this thread needs is more spreadsheets.

Inspired a new thread so I did. 

[HTG]

5 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

We are joining at a time in bulk couldn't do that every year or you would have parallel league for 20 years as you lot fart about

We are talking about one season.  

[Guest]

Not kept up with his thread recently, however I'm not sure that anyone expects to drastically improve the eosfl with the clubs moving..... Moving is, in most cases, about the clubs having the opportunity to improve and gain the support from their league to do so.

Clubs are moving to gain their licence and rebrand their clubs as senior level clubs.... I think to suggest where clubs have finished this year means they will not succeed going forward or that the clubs think they will improve the league greatly is incorrect.

As I said the clubs moving are doing so to commit to the pyramid and move towards their licence...... the quality in the juniors will remain (most probably will in the short term) and this potentially makes people feel more comfortable with their clubs decision to remain and place trust on the sjfa to negotiate their place properly. This being said, in terms of quality - players from senior will always look first towards the nearest level in the professional leagues, for instance... Spfl2 players will look at the LL if dropping league, LL players will look at the eosfl, so on and so forth... That's how football works. There will always be the odd exception (money men) but players will look at the immediate league below where they play if deemed surplus at their current club.... Also another benefit of joining the eosfl for teams doing so, the potential to open up a player market that would not have been possible if they too chose to remain where they were. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Guest

[FairWeatherFan]

23 minutes ago, HTG said:

We are talking about one season.  

Presumably two, since the EoS will run parallel sections in 2018-19 and then the Juniors in 2019-20. Unless you think it could all be agreed in time for 2018-19?

4 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Not kept up with his thread recently, however I'm not sure that anyone expects to drastically improve the eosfl with the clubs moving..... Moving is, in most cases, about the clubs having the opportunity to improve and gain the support from their league to do so.

Clubs are moving to gain their licence and rebrand their clubs as senior level clubs.... I think to suggest where clubs have finished this year means they will not succeed going forward or that the clubs think they will improve the league greatly is incorrect.

As I said the clubs moving are doing so to commit to the pyramid and move towards their licence...... the quality in the juniors will remain (most probably will in the short term) and this potentially makes people feel more comfortable with their clubs decision to remain and place trust on the sjfa to negotiate their place properly. This being said, in terms of quality - players from senior will always look first towards the nearest level in the professional leagues, for instance... Spfl2 players will look at the LL if dropping league, LL players will look at the eosfl, so on and so forth... That's how football works. There will always be the odd exception (money men) but players will look at the immediate league below where they play if deemed surplus at their current club.... Also another benefit of joining the eosfl for teams doing so, the potential to open up a player market that would not have been possible if they too chose to remain where they were. 

You're basically right. Although i'm of the opinion that the quality of the EoS will improve. Something to keep in mind with all this is that the EoS aren't looking to play Top Trumps with the East Superleague.  The EoS know they are a feeder league to the Lowland and one day hopefully a Lowland League East.

[Guest]

As am I, I wasn't trying to suggest it wouldn't... In fact quite the opposite. In time when clubs improve, teams improve, players then become attracted even more to the eosfl. And I agree, the eosfl have no desire to rival the ersjfa... The eosfl is the recognised tier 6 feeder for the LL and will remain so, the juniors joining won't change this.... In my humble opinion.