Junior football, what is the future?

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Yeah Niall from Tain St.Duthus informed us on fitba north about impending talks in the north.

Would be great to finally have a pyramid below the SHFL and if I was the NRJFA I would jump as they aren't even quoted as far as TJ and his cohorts are concerned!!

The NCL are already pyramid friendly especially great run clubs like St.Duthus.

Traditionally, the SJFA has appeared to have little interest in the NRJFA, so any sudden encouragement from TJ  (if true) is surprising.

When Formartine Utd, Turiff Utd, and Strathspey Thistle left the North Juniors to join the Highland League in 2009/10, there was little or no published opposition from the SJFA/NRJFA as far as  I can recall. Banks O'Dee also applied, but were unsuccessful, as the HFL had only 3 vacancies at that time.

 

FOOTNOTE : when NCL club Alness Utd applied to join the North Juniors, their application was rejected by the NRJFA.  Probably Alness was too far for existing Juniors to travel, as their are currently no Junior clubs in the NCL's traditional catchment area of the North & West Highlands & Islands, and the city of Inverness.

'APOLOGIES'  to a couple of posters on here earlier today, who seem to think that the Future of the Juniors Forum, should not be contaminated by posts relating to the NRJFA.    

[GordonS]

21 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Much like in the East a couple of years ago....a surprising amount of sides had already left before Linlithgow and Bo'ness declared themselves. I get the impression the two clubs were playing chicken with each other across the flints and seeing who would blink first.

Once it becomes clear that what remains - and I've no doubt that much like in the East something will - is no longer a viable or attractive environment in which to operate, pragmatism and self preservation will kick in.

The Juniors worked well for Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness, it would always be tough for them to simply quit. I think they were watching each other, and clubs like Broxburn. IIRC Broxburn declared, then Bo'ness, and at that point the discussion wasn't about the relative merits of juniors v senior pyramid any more, it was a simple question of looking at the members of the two leagues and it being obvious where we had to go. 

If there is to be a breakaway in the west it might well follow a similar pattern. If a few prominent clubs declare an intention to go, then their neighbours declare, it would likely only be a matter of time before the rest feel they have little choice but to jump ship too.

There are two very big differences though. First, clubs in the east were drawn to the very welcoming arms of the EOSFL; there's no existing league in the west. That means some clubs will need to take an even bigger leap of faith than Kelty or Bonnyrigg made. Imagine a club like Kilwinning saying "We're setting up a new WOSFL in the pyramid, who's with us!" and only three or four join them. They'd end up limping back into the WRSJFA with their tails between their legs. It's much riskier in the west, as the east clubs knew exactly where they were going. There's a hurdle in the west that the east didn't have.

The other big difference is that the west is in a considerably healthier condition than the east was. Any number of possible reasons for that and maybe it was just cyclical, but we were slipping back in comparison with both the west juniors and the LL. 

[Cameron Wilson]

4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

There are two very big differences though. First, clubs in the east were drawn to the very welcoming arms of the EOSFL; there's no existing league in the west. That means some clubs will need to take an even bigger leap of faith than Kelty or Bonnyrigg made. Imagine a club like Kilwinning saying "We're setting up a new WOSFL in the pyramid, who's with us!" and only three or four join them. They'd end up limping back into the WRSJFA with their tails between their legs.

Good points Gordon about Boness and Lithgae. If I remember correctly Boness had been making noises about joining the pyramid for quite a while before they actually did. Absolutely it seems a lot of clubs moved simply because their neighbours were doing so. This is what will kill the west juniors finally.

One point I'd make though is that Kilwinning and Clydebank can join the SoS if there doesn't turn out to be enough for a WOS league. Granted that's not quite the same as the situation with the EOS. But they'd absolutely walk the league and it would be a much easier route to the Lowland League than a WOS comprising of the better West region sides.

[Robert James]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

The Juniors worked well for Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness, it would always be tough for them to simply quit. I think they were watching each other, and clubs like Broxburn. IIRC Broxburn declared, then Bo'ness, and at that point the discussion wasn't about the relative merits of juniors v senior pyramid any more, it was a simple question of looking at the members of the two leagues and it being obvious where we had to go. 

If there is to be a breakaway in the west it might well follow a similar pattern. If a few prominent clubs declare an intention to go, then their neighbours declare, it would likely only be a matter of time before the rest feel they have little choice but to jump ship too.

There are two very big differences though. First, clubs in the east were drawn to the very welcoming arms of the EOSFL; there's no existing league in the west. That means some clubs will need to take an even bigger leap of faith than Kelty or Bonnyrigg made. Imagine a club like Kilwinning saying "We're setting up a new WOSFL in the pyramid, who's with us!" and only three or four join them. They'd end up limping back into the WRSJFA with their tails between their legs. It's much riskier in the west, as the east clubs knew exactly where they were going. There's a hurdle in the west that the east didn't have.

The other big difference is that the west is in a considerably healthier condition than the east was. Any number of possible reasons for that and maybe it was just cyclical, but we were slipping back in comparison with both the west juniors and the LL. 

I'm not sure that  Kilwinning would  "end up limping back into the WRJFA" ,  in the (unlikely ?) event that a WoSL  isn't set up.   But I am of the opinion that Clydebank intend to go senior, even if this means reactivating its "deferred" EoSL membership application. The Bankies haven't forgotten what happened, last time they tried to join the pyramid.

If not, the SoSL beckons, and offers an easier route to the Lowland, once the club is licensed.

     

[The Mantis]

26 minutes ago, GordonS said:

There are two very big differences though. First, clubs in the east were drawn to the very welcoming arms of the EOSFL; there's no existing league in the west.

I know this was discussed hundreds of pages back, but if even a handful defected to the SOSL for 20-21, the champion could be in the LL for 21-22. Assuming the SOSL took the sensible approach, i.e. conferences, as they have 15 clubs atm.
The SOSL would become the de facto WOSL

Edited January 31, 2020 by The Mantis

[Ginaro]

3 minutes ago, Cameron Wilson said:

One point I'd make though is that Kilwinning and Clydebank can join the SoS if there doesn't turn out to be enough for a WOS league. Granted that's not quite the same as the situation with the EOS. But they'd absolutely walk the league and it would be a much easier route to the Lowland League than a WOS comprising of the better West region sides.

Indeed and the SoS would mean immediate access to the U20s and the licensing process, plus two chances of the Scottish Cup - all without having to create a new league - but a lot of travelling if not many other clubs join. Clydebank need to fulfil their members wishes by going senior and it would be better than going east every second week at tier 7 or 8.

Here's some social media reaction...

Tayside club with their usual response:

Vote!

 

[energyzone]

The Juniors worked well for Linlithgow Rose and Bo'ness, it would always be tough for them to simply quit. I think they were watching each other, and clubs like Broxburn. IIRC Broxburn declared, then Bo'ness, and at that point the discussion wasn't about the relative merits of juniors v senior pyramid any more, it was a simple question of looking at the members of the two leagues and it being obvious where we had to go. 
If there is to be a breakaway in the west it might well follow a similar pattern. If a few prominent clubs declare an intention to go, then their neighbours declare, it would likely only be a matter of time before the rest feel they have little choice but to jump ship too.
There are two very big differences though. First, clubs in the east were drawn to the very welcoming arms of the EOSFL; there's no existing league in the west. That means some clubs will need to take an even bigger leap of faith than Kelty or Bonnyrigg made. Imagine a club like Kilwinning saying "We're setting up a new WOSFL in the pyramid, who's with us!" and only three or four join them. They'd end up limping back into the WRSJFA with their tails between their legs. It's much riskier in the west, as the east clubs knew exactly where they were going. There's a hurdle in the west that the east didn't have.
The other big difference is that the west is in a considerably healthier condition than the east was. Any number of possible reasons for that and maybe it was just cyclical, but we were slipping back in comparison with both the west juniors and the LL. 

I don't have any inside information, but I would be fairly confident that the Kilwinning chairman and committee have had weekly conversations with other clubs who also favour setting up or joining a WOS league, hence the announcement last night. I don't think they'll be alone. It would be good for other clubs to voice their support or otherwise though...

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Auchinleck's line has always been the will follow but not lead. They're happy where they are.
Right now Clydebank and Kilwinning go. They'll probably be thinking 14 team Premiership that'd suit their cup runs [emoji4]
Few more though and I'm sure they leave.

I hope they remain happy where they are.

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

I know this was discussed hundreds of pages back, but if even a handful defected to the SOSL for 20-21, the champion could be in the LL for 21-22. Assuming the SOSL took the sensible approach, i.e. conferences, as they have 15 clubs atm.
The SOSL would become the de facto WOSL

Of which 2 fall in the West Region footprint.

So if you only get 5-11 which might seem to few for a standalone league. You could easily work that as conferences more like this year's First Division with inter-conference games. Instead of fixed leagues never playing the other to make the first season an easier transition.

[AlanCamelonfan]

27 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Indeed and the SoS would mean immediate access to the U20s and the licensing process, plus two chances of the Scottish Cup - all without having to create a new league - but a lot of travelling if not many other clubs join. Clydebank need to fulfil their members wishes by going senior and it would be better than going east every second week at tier 7 or 8.

Here's some social media reaction...

Tayside club with their usual response:

Vote!

 

They have been told why

[Burnie_man]

31 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Indeed and the SoS would mean immediate access to the U20s and the licensing process, plus two chances of the Scottish Cup - all without having to create a new league - but a lot of travelling if not many other clubs join. Clydebank need to fulfil their members wishes by going senior and it would be better than going east every second week at tier 7 or 8.

Here's some social media reaction...

Tayside club with their usual response:

Vote!

 

Strange response from Carnoustie. They will already be aware that they are above the HL/LL dividing line, and therefore unlikely the EoS would accept them as things stand, as for being "forced out", how can you be forced out of something that you have never been a member of?

[RedEd]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Largs, Renfrew, Port Glasgow, Ashfield & Ardrossan must tick a few major boxes as well.

As do Whitletts Vics currently, although they will move to a new stadium once the rugby club takes over Dam Park. 

[Burnie_man]

34 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Indeed and the SoS would mean immediate access to the U20s and the licensing process, plus two chances of the Scottish Cup - all without having to create a new league - but a lot of travelling if not many other clubs join. Clydebank need to fulfil their members wishes by going senior and it would be better than going east every second week at tier 7 or 8.

A new WoSFL has to be the sole aim to once and for all to plug the pyramid gap.   

The SoS (or EoS) is a decent back-up if there are not a minimum of 10/12 clubs to form the league and you want senior football next season.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

Strange response from Carnoustie. They will already be aware that they are above the HL/LL dividing line, and therefore unlikely the EoS would accept them as things stand, as for being "forced out", how can you be forced out of something that you have never been a member of?

Yet in 2018 when asked if they were applying for the EoS, they said no. Reason why geography.

West clubs like Tayside clubs have now been " forced out the pyramid". They seem to starting their own or taking some action at least.

Maybe Tayside should as well, instead of complaining about it on social media. There's no excuses now. SJFA aren't going to get you in the pyramid. Gotta do it yourself.

[gaz5]

Ashfield might have an issue with their pitch size. That's supposedly scuppered the planned BSC groundshare.

Only if they want a licence, not to play in Tier 6 WoS league.

[andy25]

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I hope they remain happy where they are.

[honestman54]

8 minutes ago, RedEd said:

As do Whitletts Vics currently, although they will move to a new stadium once the rugby club takes over Dam Park. 

Where are Whitletts Vics going to then?  They wont share Dam Park with AYR RFC will they?

[RedEd]

8 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

Where are Whitletts Vics going to then?  They wont share Dam Park with AYR RFC will they?

The plan is to go back to Whitletts, where the 3g pitch is. A fair bit of work needs to be done before they can move, and I don't think the rugby club has sold Millbrae yet.

Edited January 31, 2020 by RedEd

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Yet in 2018 when asked if they were applying for the EoS, they said no. Reason why geography.

West clubs like Tayside clubs have now been " forced out the pyramid". They seem to starting their own or taking some action at least.

Maybe Tayside should as well, instead of complaining about it on social media. There's no excuses now. SJFA aren't going to get you in the pyramid. Gotta do it yourself.

They really have two options.

Sit and wait to see if this dividing line shenanigans is definitively clarified once and for all, which might open the door to EoS/LL. 

Seek to hook up with the NRJFA and maybe form a combined Superleague feeding into the HL.  As I pointed out a while back, the top 8 Tayside and the top 8 NRJFA would mostly be located in the Dundee - Aberdeen corridor with not many exceptions.  That's hardly onerous.

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

They really have two options.

Sit and wait to see if this dividing line shenanigans is definitively clarified once and for all, which might open the door to EoS/LL. 

Seek to hook up with the NRJFA and maybe form a combined Superleague feeding into the HL.  As I pointed out a while back, the top 8 Tayside and the top 8 NRJFA would mostly be located in the Dundee - Aberdeen corridor with not many exceptions.  That's hardly onerous.

 

Better than a tuesday night in coldstream.