Is money ruining the game?

[7-2]

Pandantifa really has swallowed the whole manual. I'm amazed he hasn't brought slavery into it yet.

[pandarilla]

Wages are relative. So the comparison between different occupations is a natural one.

Now I understand that the fb posts you refer to generally show the sharer to be a bit of a fool. I don't have any social media account and I certainly wouldn't want soldiers given such a high status in society (a separate argument altogether) - but that doesn't mean the whole thing should be thrown out.

I think there has to be some proportion. What does the pm earn? MPs? Surgeons, nurses, teachers?

I'm not a communist who believes in some sort of equal wage. But I think a healthy society keeps some healthy perspective - and in relation to some industries that is clearly gone (if it ever existed).

I think the top footballers should earn a very fine wage, and live a very comfortable life. But I think the current situation is so out of touch that it's become unhealthy.

[RandomGuy.]

My problem is not with players wages alone. It's with money in the game as a whole.

Why though? PSG have virtually earned the £220m they paid for Neymar back already, surely that's a great business deal for them?

British Car Auctions just got sold to another auction firm for £1.2 billion, whys that let grotesque than a footballer being sold to another club?

[pandarilla]

Pandantifa really has swallowed the whole manual. I'm amazed he hasn't brought slavery into it yet.

Swallowed the whole manual?

I describe myself as a socialist. I'm not entirely sure what manual I've swallowed.

[ICTChris]

Wages are relative. So the comparison between different occupations is a natural one.

Now I understand that the fb posts you refer to generally show the sharer to be a bit of a fool. I don't have any social media account and I certainly wouldn't want soldiers given such a high status in society (a separate argument altogether) - but that doesn't mean the whole thing should be thrown out.

I think there has to be some proportion. What does the pm earn? MPs? Surgeons, nurses, teachers?

I'm not a communist who believes in some sort of equal wage. But I think a healthy society keeps some healthy perspective - and in relation to some industries that is clearly gone (if it ever existed).

I think the top footballers should earn a very fine wage, and live a very comfortable life. But I think the current situation is so out of touch that it's become unhealthy.

I don't really understand what "out of touch" means? Players out of touch with the fans? Player wages out of touch with average earnings? Again, you cant seem to come up with any actual harm caused by wages or money in football, just that you don't like it.

Everything you are saying should also be predicated on the fact that football is a small industry - there are roughly 4,000 professional footballers in England, most of whom will be earning far less than those in the Premiership.

[pandarilla]

I don't really understand what "out of touch" means? Players out of touch with the fans? Player wages out of touch with average earnings? Again, you cant seem to come up with any actual harm caused by wages or money in football, just that you don't like it.

Everything you are saying should also be predicated on the fact that football is a small industry - there are roughly 4,000 professional footballers in England, most of whom will be earning far less than those in the Premiership.

Yes - out of touch with the fans.

Yes - out of touch with average earnings of the society as a whole.

A couple of pages back I posted some of the negative impacts on society of this situation.

I also know that in terms of numbers we're only talking about a few thousand individuals (if that). But football is so high profile that these guys and this game has a much bigger effect (this is where you post the 'think of the children' simpsons gif).

You seem to want stats on damage done to society - and obviously I don't have that. But that's not to say that it doesn't exist.

[pandarilla]

They're not 'big' transfer fees or wages, they're astronomical.

It's morally indefensible. The gap between the richest and poorest in our society is absolutely massive and continuing to grow. Now I fully understand that this is not the fault of football but it is clearly one of the most high profile issues (due to the sheer interest and media coverage).

We lose perspective on what's actually important in life, and it becomes much less about sport. Again, this is not something new, but it continues to grow.

Clubs and players also lose connection with the communities they represent, and again I don't think that's a good thing.

I think there's also some evidence that it's not helping these young guys develop as players and as people. It's so difficult for them to remain grounded - and as individuals they often fail to achieve potential and then struggle to cope with the aftermath.

This is the post from earlier.

[ICTChris]

That post is a load of woo. Is there any evidence that clubs are losing connections to their home communities? Most Premiership season ticket holders are from within the local area of their club and there has always been people who support big teams, it isn't new. If you go back to when teams were generally a lot more 'local' just about every club has a higher average attendance now than then. Clubs being far richer now mean they can have active community programmes within their local areas.

 

"we lose perspective on what's important in life" - what does this mean? People are capable of enjoying watching Man Utd games in Sky while maintaining a perspective on life. It's sport, it's entertainment, people watch it as a bit of escapism or entertainment.

 

The gap between rich and poor is a slightly separate issue but I'd suggest that focusing on professional footballers will do nothing to change any gap - as above there are very few high earning pro players and if there is an issue with high wages then it's surely with people who earn them without justification rather than footballers whose wages can clearly be tied to the money they generate.

[pandarilla]

That post is a load of woo. Is there any evidence that clubs are losing connections to their home communities? Most Premiership season ticket holders are from within the local area of their club and there has always been people who support big teams, it isn't new. If you go back to when teams were generally a lot more 'local' just about every club has a higher average attendance now than then. Clubs being far richer now mean they can have active community programmes within their local areas.
 
"we lose perspective on what's important in life" - what does this mean? People are capable of enjoying watching Man Utd games in Sky while maintaining a perspective on life. It's sport, it's entertainment, people watch it as a bit of escapism or entertainment.
 
The gap between rich and poor is a slightly separate issue but I'd suggest that focusing on professional footballers will do nothing to change any gap - as above there are very few high earning pro players and if there is an issue with high wages then it's surely with people who earn them without justification rather than footballers whose wages can clearly be tied to the money they generate.

A very good post.

I've acknowledged the work done by premier league clubs in the community earlier - and it's important that they're recognising the issue and doing a lot of good in their local area.

The book 'my father and other working class heroes' by the sports journalist and presenter Gary imlach is very good on this issue. A lot of supporters just drifted away when the premier league effects became too much. You see it in the creation of fcum (it feels like I've got that wrong but can't be arsed checking) and the few others in a similar mould.

In terms of the middle paragraph, there's not much I can add. You're right, it's vague notions I'm talking about. But again, I don't think that means it doesn't exist. 24 hour rolling coverage leads to masses of shite, meaningless content. It's overwhelming.

[ICTChris]

A very good post.

I've acknowledged the work done by premier league clubs in the community earlier - and it's important that they're recognising the issue and doing a lot of good in their local area.

The book 'my father and other working class heroes' by the sports journalist and presenter Gary imlach is very good on this issue. A lot of supporters just drifted away when the premier league effects became too much. You see it in the creation of fcum (it feels like I've got that wrong but can't be arsed checking) and the few others in a similar mould.

In terms of the middle paragraph, there's not much I can add. You're right, it's vague notions I'm talking about. But again, I don't think that means it doesn't exist. 24 hour rolling coverage leads to masses of shite, meaningless content. It's overwhelming.

I've read that book, a few years ago now. What I can recall was his dad, who won the FA cup and played internationally in a World Cup, had to work in the off season as a carpenter because they were paid so little. This was the era of the maximum wage.

FCUM were formed when the Glazers took over Manchester Utd, more than a decade into the Premier league era, so I'd question their formation being about drifting away from the game. I can see why people would want to be involved in fan-owned clubs though.

I think the vague notions that you are talking about aren't vague, they are non-existent.

[pandarilla]

I've read that book, a few years ago now. What I can recall was his dad, who won the FA cup and played internationally in a World Cup, had to work in the off season as a carpenter because they were paid so little. This was the era of the maximum wage.

FCUM were formed when the Glazers took over Manchester Utd, more than a decade into the Premier league era, so I'd question their formation being about drifting away from the game. I can see why people would want to be involved in fan-owned clubs though.

I think the vague notions that you are talking about aren't vague, they are non-existent.

This was the era of the maximum wage, and played were clearly exploited. What are you suggesting though - that some sort of reform would lead to the same again? That there's no happy medium?

The glaziers were the catalyst for fcum. But the feelings of disconnection didn't happen overnight. The gradual increase in ticket price, merchandise etc led to fans feeling more distant. Are you suggesting this was a more immediate thing?

I'm absolutely certain Gary imlach would disagree with your last paragraph. Maybe you should read the book again. He speaks to a lot of fans whilst researching the book and searching for old football memorabilia. There's a clear and growing disconnect that he traces back to the creation of the premier league (and it mirrors the NFL franchise model in the states where he was working at the time). He claimed it tied in with the feelings of many sports fans over there when these clubs threatened to leave the city.

[sparky88]

When players change hands for 400m in 20 years, we will find it quaint that we were worrying about 200m footballers, in much the same way as we think of 25 years ago, when players like Chris Sutton changing hands for £5m was seen as being obscene and the end of football. 

[pandarilla]

When players change hands for 400m in 20 years, we will find it quaint that we were worrying about 200m footballers, in much the same way as we think of 25 years ago, when players like Chris Sutton changing hands for £5m was seen as being obscene and the end of football. 

5live earlier mentioned that Alan shearer going for 15m would be 25m in today's money (by inflation obviously).

[Jambomo]

I think the large transfer fees are more a symptom of the larger issue that football is simply a business and has been for a while. Clubs and leagues have always had to be well-run (relatively so) but now the agents agitating players for moves so that they can bring in fees, clubs hoarding young talent and loaning them out. This is done from a business perspective to earn money rather than for footballing purposes.

[tbone stag]

 

Swallowed the whole manual?

 

I describe myself as a socialist. I'm not entirely sure what manual I've swallowed.

 

The Communist Manifesto for Dummies presumably.

[pandarilla]

 
The Communist Manifesto for Dummies presumably.

Bazinga!

[sjc]

Footballers wages aren't the problem. Like @ICT_Chris says, they are the talent then they rightly get paid handsomely for it. The amount of money leaving the game via agents is more questionable. 

Money has always been a factor in the game with bigger Clubs/leagues having always had more of it. The scraping of foreign player quotas has created 4 or 5 superleagues in Europe due to their relative financial muscle compared with the smaller leagues. This is compounded in that changes to the UCL format makes it harder for even the bigger Clubs in these smaller leagues getting access to its prize money.

[Guest]

On 9/2/2017 at 17:49, ICTChris said:

The gap between rich and poor is a slightly separate issue but I'd suggest that focusing on professional footballers will do nothing to change any gap - as above there are very few high earning pro players and if there is an issue with high wages then it's surely with people who earn them without justification rather than footballers whose wages can clearly be tied to the money they generate.

How do you quantify this though ? The failures (ie relegated teams), their players are still paid kings ransoms for this failure so is it the players or is it the marketing Manager and staff who should be paid these crazy sums of money ? Who really generates the cash ? Do you think Sunderland supporters and TV viewers were tuning in and turning up at the Stadium of Light at the end of last season to see the fantastic Sunderland playing staff in action ??

Again, if we're taking it to the extremes of "cash generation" then surely the custodians and those responsible for shaping the country's economy are rather underpaid ? 

Does it make any sense that the Chancellor gets paid less p/a than a mediocre footballer gets weekly ?

Footballers wages are completely screwed up and out of kilter with the rest of society and there's NO argument that can possibly be given to justify it, the mere fact that people are trying is what I find alarming.

Brainwashed or just stupid ?? 

[ICTChris]

How do you quantify this though ? The failures (ie relegated teams), their players are still paid kings ransoms for this failure so is it the players or is it the marketing Manager and staff who should be paid these crazy sums of money ? Who really generates the cash ? Do you think Sunderland supporters and TV viewers were tuning in and turning up at the Stadium of Light at the end of last season to see the fantastic Sunderland playing staff in action ??
Again, if we're taking it to the extremes of "cash generation" then surely the custodians and those responsible for shaping the country's economy are rather underpaid ? 
Does it make any sense that the Chancellor gets paid less p/a than a mediocre footballer gets weekly ?
Footballers wages are completely screwed up and out of kilter with the rest of society and there's NO argument that can possibly be given to justify it, the mere fact that people are trying is what I find alarming.
Brainwashed or just stupid ?? 

People pay money to watch football. The players play football. Nobody, as far as I know, pays to watch the marketing manager. Obviously backroom staff are important but it's about the game and the people playing it should get paid most.

Comparing salaries for jobs like the chancellor to professional footballers is a fools errand. It's also debatable how much chancellors generate, some of them could end up owing more back than they get paid. Politicians are paid a salary to administer the institutions of government, that's different from being in a job where you have a much more direct correlation between your performance and what it generates. You say that footballers often underperform, that is true and will be reflected in their salary - if players perform consistently poorly they won't maintain their salary levels or they'll drop down to a level that will pay them. Or the clubs paying them will drop because they aren't using their resources properly - a good example of this is Aston Villa who have a budget of nearly eight times that of Brentford yet finished below them last season.

I don't think that making comparisons between completely different jobs in completely different industries proves anything. It also isn't alarming that people disagree or have different ideas from you on footballers wages.

[eez-eh]

I'm probably somewhere in the middle of this argument - however it is quite amusing to see the number of posters on this thread arguing the case of the free market who'll then go onto the politics forum and pretend to be left-wing.