Project Brave rumbles on..

[ICTChris]

We are pleased with our position in the awards

http://ictfc.com/news/club-news/2048-ictfc-gain-sfa-progressive-performance-award

[Swello]

43 minutes ago, boulderdomb said:

https://gmfc.net/2017/11/15/warren-hawke-project-brave-statement/

Sounds like Morton have been royally fucked by SFA

Poor show from Morton - that statement was lacking a single meltdown and didn't once accuse dark forces of moving against the club. To make matters worse, the word "agenda" was included but was bafflingly used *in context* and wasn't preceded by the word "hidden". 2/10

[Highlandmagyar 2nd String]

Thistle have stated that they didn't apply for Elite status . They got what they asked for.

[Swello]

I've assumed that the vast majority of clubs knew where they stood once the criteria were known (even if they disagreed with the criteria) - so there can't be many who applied for Elite status in the first place other than the eight. Ross County seem to be the only ones complaining about the level they are at (and even they seem to admit that they don't meet one of the criteria). Morton's protest seems to be about the fact that it wasn't clear to them where they stood in terms of rankings - so not about their level per se.

[capt_oats]

Great statement from Thistle tbf. First one I’ve read that’s gone into any real detail.

[Crilly]

The whole project is shrouded in secrecy and there are still more questions than answers as far as the ordinary fan is concerned.  If, rightly, inclusion in the various tiers is fluid will there be "promotion" and "relegation"?  Will the top tier always be limited to 8 clubs?  If so then the criteria for inclusion would change or there would need to be a points based system.   Presumably also, the financial benefits will vary according to which tier an academy is in?

As an aside I find it odd that Dundee have been placed in the bottom tier.  I thought that they wished to be included in the elite bracket but started their process too late. 

Maybe all will be clearer in time or then again maybe not.

[Uncle Psychosis]

Direct link to Thistle statement here:

https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/project-brave-statement/

 

 

[happyaccie]

7 minutes ago, Uncle Psychosis said:

Direct link to Thistle statement here:

https://ptfc.co.uk/ptfc-news/project-brave-statement/

 

 

Fabulous statement which clarify's Patrick's position regarding Project Brave, also why the Jag's felt no overwhelming desire to be included in the elite group.

The statement also gives a clearer view on the objectives of Project Brave. Well done Thistle, just wish more clubs were as forthcoming in keeping their fan's informed on the clubs footballing matters.

[Cerberus]

You can shove your OF, SFA baw sooking league up your chuff.

Unless we apply next year, then please let us in.

[gannonball]

The last project, by C. Whyte will prove to be far more beneficial to Scottish football than this pish, all hail Project Grave. 

[lubo_blaha]

On 14/11/2017 at 18:13, coprolite said:

 

Your senior team looked quicker, faster and stronger than ours and we've got a sports scientist.

I bet if we could do a controlled experiment, the difference would be down to putting the hours in.

i can see that at "elite" level it might make a difference but I don't think that there will be eight teams worth of elite youth in Scotland at any one time, nowhere near.

The SFA should concentrate on improving the numbers of competent pros. The top clubs can then pay to develop the actual elite players.
 

 

It's not a coincidence that we've had significantly fewer injuries since Graham Kirk came in. 

[Bazil85]

Great article in the Daily Record (not often I say that) about Project Brave not being brave enough. Mentions Germany in the early 00s after the team were flagging a bit. They changed rules to force clubs to play six home grown German players. This should be goal 1 of Project Brave. 

[SilverWolfe]

Great article in the Daily Record (not often I say that) about Project Brave not being brave enough. Mentions Germany in the early 00s after the team were flagging a bit. They changed rules to force clubs to play six home grown German players. This should be goal 1 of Project Brave. 

I understand you are saying make it enforceable, but I think most teams in the league do play 6 homegrown players. I know we have 7 homegrown players who we consider either first choice every week or at very least rotated between the bench and first 11. Can't think off the top of my head of any team that doesn't, maybe Rangers?

[capt_oats]

21 hours ago, Crilly said:

As an aside I find it odd that Dundee have been placed in the bottom tier.  I thought that they wished to be included in the elite bracket but started their process too late. 

Maybe all will be clearer in time or then again maybe not.

The more I've looked at it the less surprised I am tbh.

I posted in the other Project Brave thread about Dundee ending up in the 3rd tier and given they only advertised vacancies last month it doesn't really reflect well on them, if of course, they were actually serious about it. If they're not fussed and want to spend their money on other things then it hardly matters.

There's been a lot of hand wringing about the staff need to be employed in order to meet criteria and reading Dundee's other forum there are comments like this: "I might have got this wrong but elite status requires full time roles: Heads of academy, youth, children’s program, player recruitment, science and medicine and performance analysis. How do smaller clubs like Killie and Accies afford these full time staff?" which seems completely oblivious to the Academy structures that other clubs actively and successfully run. Most clubs already have a Head of Academy or Academy Director the fact that Dundee don't and why they don't is really a question for them.

 The majority of clubs who have a functioning Academy already have a few of these staff members at the club and they're part of the Academy budget. How they pay for them is presumably, they budget for them at the start of every season and adjust their playing budgets accordingly. The narrative seems to be that in order to meet the Elite criteria you have to bring in half a dozen extra staff. The only teams who are being asked to bring in a raft of bodies are teams like Dundee who, it seems (I could be wrong), don't actually have anyone in place at this moment in time for whatever reason.

I know next to nothing about Dundee's Academy so I don't know whether they've had these positions filled in the past however they advertised the following vacancies on October 16th:
- Head of Academy
- Head of Professional Programme
- Head of Youth Programme (u13-u16)
- Head of Football Science and Medicine
- Head of Children's Programme (u11-u12)
- Head of Player Recruitment

To put that into a bit of context when looking at the Head of Academy post they advertised which "involves overall management of the Academy": Scott Leitch has been Motherwell's Academy Director since 2013, prior to that it was Gordon Young who was appointed Academy Director in 2012 as part of a restructure having taken over from McCart as Head of Youth Development in 2008: http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2012/06/14/youth-development-restructure/

So essentially Motherwell have had a Head of Academy/Academy Director in place for over 5 years. Dundee advertised for theirs a month before the SFA announced the tier placements for Project Brave which in turn had been mooted over a year ago. Regardless of Project Brave there have been criteria requirements in place since 2012 from Club Academy Scotland so it's not even as if you can say that having to meet criteria is a new thing. It's really, really not. In fact the positions that Dundee are looking to fill have been largely standard since 2012 it's not as if they're specific Project Brave demands: 
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/Part5:GeneralAppendix2013/A30 Club Academy Scotland Minimum Criteria.pdf

Stuart Ogilvie's been Head of Academy Recruitment at Fir Park since 2015, Paul Burns has been Head of Children's Programme since 2008, you get the idea. There's an established framework at Motherwell's Academy that goes some way to ticking the boxes required and more to the point it's a structure that has been operating, functional and has had (relative) demonstrable success for years.

Looking at a selection of other clubs who have similar roles;
- Eddie May's been Head of Academy at Hibs since 2014
- Roger Arnott has been Head of Academy at Hearts since 2014
- Gerry Britton's been Academy Director at Thistle since 2013
- Paul McDonald's been Killie's Youth Academy Director since 2013

Clubs haven't been forced into appointing Heads of Academy simply to comply with a fanciful idea that Brian McClair and a working group conjured up and Malky Mackay is demanding they employ. It's a role that's a key part of a functioning Academy.

Obviously if some clubs wanted to pursue 'Elite' grading they may have had to add a couple of staff like analysts or a dedicated sports scientist and that will obviously cost money. The only specific addition to Motherwell's staff I noticed was an Academy Head of Sports Science and Medicine. Others, like Thistle, seem to have decided it wasn't really worth the extra investment and they were happy enough to continue as is. That's fine.

However the idea that Dundee have been put in the 3rd tier because they were asked to spend shitloads on extra staff doesn't quite ring true, it looks like the reason that Dundee are in the 3rd tier is because it looks like there's very little structure to their Academy. Which has little to do with the SFA and everything to do with Dundee.

Absolutely none of the above is a defence of or vindication of the merits or validity of Project Brave but equally if Dundee really don't have any of the staff they advertised in place right now and the majority of clubs have at least some in place then it really shouldn't be a surprise that Dundee have been binned off to the 3rd tier.

[Swello]

31 minutes ago, Bazil85 said:

Great article in the Daily Record (not often I say that) about Project Brave not being brave enough. Mentions Germany in the early 00s after the team were flagging a bit. They changed rules to force clubs to play six home grown German players. This should be goal 1 of Project Brave. 

[not that it will be an issue much longer] but how do you get around European law with that? My limited understanding was that you couldn't put nationality rules in as it would restrict the rights of other EU citizens to get that job.

[Bazil85]

2 minutes ago, Tartantony said:

 

I understand you are saying make it enforceable, but I think most teams in the league do play 6 homegrown players. I know we have 7 homegrown players who we consider either first choice every week or at very least rotated between the bench and first 11. Can't think off the top of my head of any team that doesn't, maybe Rangers?

 

Guess it depends on how they define home grown players. I know the current definition (for the under 21 players rule that's already in place) is players developed at the club for at least three years before their 21st birthday (the current rule is no older that 21 by 31st December in the current season or something like that).  

I could be wrong but I believe that would only be three regular first team players for Celtic? I would have that rule has to be six players and if it was every game I think we'd see a change in the way Celtic would have to work. Although fair play to them recently with players such as Ralford and Miller. 

If it came in right now that six of the starting 11 had to be developed by the club for three years pre their 21st (I would also have something along the lines of two under 21 players, same development time) Celtic would have to start every week without fail with Tierney, Forrest, McGregor then maybe Ralston, Miller Henderson and if any of them were injured another Scottish player would have to come in. They'd still win the league hands down and can you imagine how good that would be for players development if it was consistent across the division? Don't see a downside either. 

 

[Bazil85]

6 minutes ago, Swello said:

[not that it will be an issue much longer] but how do you get around European law with that? My limited understanding was that you couldn't put nationality rules in as it would restrict the rights of other EU citizens to get that job.

European law would be unaffected mate. The law relates to equal employment rights which would not be impacted. A team could sign 50 players from all over the world if they wanted, just the rules are in relation to who can play. Rules of a game are different from law. In fact they already exist. The same rules mean we can't play 11 Brazilians in a Scottish national team and we can only play an English player if he has a Scottish granny or the likes. They're rules not laws. 

[coprolite]

It's not a coincidence that we've had significantly fewer injuries since Graham Kirk came in. 

It might be.

I'm not even convinced that we have had fewer injuries. I remember our squad being pretty ravaged by them season before last.

[coprolite]

Great article in the Daily Record (not often I say that) about Project Brave not being brave enough. Mentions Germany in the early 00s after the team were flagging a bit. They changed rules to force clubs to play six home grown German players. This should be goal 1 of Project Brave. 

There isn't a problem that can't be solved by blaming foreigners.

[SilverWolfe]

Guess it depends on how they define home grown players. I know the current definition (for the under 21 players rule that's already in place) is players developed at the club for at least three years before their 21st birthday (the current rule is no older that 21 by 31st December in the current season or something like that).  
I could be wrong but I believe that would only be three regular first team players for Celtic? I would have that rule has to be six players and if it was every game I think we'd see a change in the way Celtic would have to work. Although fair play to them recently with players such as Ralford and Miller. 
If it came in right now that six of the starting 11 had to be developed by the club for three years pre their 21st (I would also have something along the lines of two under 21 players, same development time) Celtic would have to start every week without fail with Tierney, Forrest, McGregor then maybe Ralston, Miller Henderson and if any of them were injured another Scottish player would have to come in. They'd still win the league hands down and can you imagine how good that would be for players development if it was consistent across the division? Don't see a downside either. 
 

Yeah I see what you mean. I was aligning my thoughts with the current UEFA criteria where you need to register 8 homegrown players (defined as developed in your own nation, with 4 being developed by the club).

I'm not sure it would help the smaller teams as they might not have 6 players that are good enough or replacements good enough if there are injuries/suspensions. Perhaps 6 is too many and it would work better with the UEFA rules. It's an idea I like though.