Project Brave rumbles on..

[craigkillie]

3 minutes ago, German Jag said:

Had a quick look at the Dfb Pokal finals from 2001 to 2006. More often than not there were less than 6 German players in the starting line-ups. 

The same was true of every single year prior to that too though.  German clubs haven't really often been flooded with foreign players.

[capt_oats]

Dundee gone done a statement. http://dundeefc.co.uk/news/project-brave-statement/

Quote

Yesterday the Scottish FA announced that we have been included in the ‘Performance’ tier of the new academy structure of Project Brave, see below for a statement from the club.

Club Statement

We fully support the desire to incrementally improve the quality and professionalism of everything that is done within Scottish football, and specifically at Dundee FC to develop young footballers. It’s not just about developing football skills; it is about creating a safe, supporting environment in which young players can become healthy and fit young men with the required technical skills, and who are exemplary citizens and excellent representatives of the club. This means having high-quality facilities and, most importantly, skilled coaches and other professionals in place to support player development. A challenging games programme, whereby our teams can face other quality sides on a regular basis, is also essential.

Dundee FC already invests heavily in its existing Academy teams and remains totally committed to its stated objective to allocate affordable additional resources in this area.  Indeed, the club was – and is – prepared to increase its financial investment in order to be accepted into the Scottish FA’s Performance Progressive standard.  This commitment stood, even with recognition that the funding contribution from the Scottish FA would have been considerably less than the further costs we would incur through appointing several additional full-time members of staff.  However, in light of the club having suffered two insolvency events in recent memory, it would have been utter folly and fiscally irresponsible for DFC to employ several new full-time staff members without prior confirmation from the Scottish FA that if we did so, we would be accepted into the Performance Progressive level.

Accordingly, the club initially applied to be included at Performance Progressive level and were advised to also request approval of ‘derogations’ which would effectively allow us to recruit additional staff after conditional approval had been granted, with a view to be ready to ‘hit the ground running’ in the New Year when the new structure is rolled out. This was why we advertised recently for the various vacancies, setting a timetable that would allow us to meet the criteria by the end of 2017. Unfortunately, the Assessment Panel was not convinced we would be ready on time, and our application was not approved. An appeal against that decision was commenced, and this led to the Scottish FA then offering an opportunity for the club to join CAS at the Performance level, with the situation to be reviewed next summer.

Whilst we have somewhat reluctantly accepted the compromise offered, we maintain that we were absolutely correct and financially prudent in refusing to over-commit the club financially by appointing new staff; additionally, those new staff members would most probably have left their existing employment to work for DFC.  It remains a source of great disappointment that we have lost out in this situation because we would not gamble with the club’s financial stability. We are particularly surprised that the Scottish FA’s ‘cart before the horse approach’ was effectively encouraging clubs to take such a fiscally irresponsible chance.

At the end of the day, being at Performance level will mean an internal restructuring of roles within the club to ensure we meet relevant criteria with part time staff, except for the Head of Academy, Jimmy Boyle. All existing teams will be maintained and the new games programme from February 2018 will still allow our boys to pit their wits against good quality opposition both at Performance and Progressive level. The six-month period until reassessment of all CAS clubs will allow the Scottish FA to monitor clubs at all three levels, see if they are fully complying with the stringent criteria that have been set, and potentially revisit the structure and clubs in membership at the various levels next summer. From Dundee FC’s perspective, it will allow us to continue to build up our youth infrastructure so that we can be ready to take the next step, but without potentially jeopardising the club’s financial future.

 

[Ludo*1]

Neil McCann mentioned on DEETV that Project Brave wants a massive and ridiculous amount of money invested into it which he doesn't feel is worthwhile and John Nelms has his own plans in that regard hence why we are not going for it.

 

Strange one.

 

ETA: just read the statement there. I think it just reaffirms that our BoD are the real deal which is more pleasing than missing out on this nonsense project.

 

 

[coprolite]

Trust me I'm not blaming foreigners, I am squarely blaming the decision makers in our game. 

I advocate a no blame culture.

[happyaccie]

On 13/11/2017 at 10:56, Ludo*1 said:

Just to mention - for whatever reason, and like most I don't know the reason - Nelms was known to be seething when this whole Project Brave was announced and dead set against it. f**k knows what changed his mind with the posts being advertised in a late attempt to snag a place - but there's obviously some political manoeuvring going on with all the club's at the moment.

 

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

Neil McCann mentioned on DEETV that Project Brave wants a massive and ridiculous amount of money invested into it which he doesn't feel is worthwhile and John Nelms has his own plans in that regard hence why we are not going for it.

 

Strange one.

 

ETA: just read the statement there. I think it just reaffirms that our BoD are the real deal which is more pleasing than missing out on this nonsense project.

 

 

Not only does this roaster disagree with fellowDundee  fans posts, he even contradicts his own. He has a valid reason though the poor **** has the misfortune of being resident in Dundee.

[Diamonds are Forever]

6 hours ago, Bazil85 said:

It's more the point that it would forces clubs to heavily consider youth development (as it appears to have done for Germany in recent years... Not that I'm saying we'll ever get to that level). I'm not saying it'll turn bad players into good players at all, I'm saying it'll encourage more clubs to nurture youth talent because the bottom line is you need to develop better players because a number of them will need to be in your first team one day. 

No one is denying Scottish players are far from good enough right now, that's obvious. The whole point is to come up with a solution to remedy that. Project Brave goes some of the way to do that but not far enough. That's the point of the article. 

 

But that implies that clubs don't currently see youth development as a priority, which is ridiculous. Every single club in Scotland is desperate to produce quality youngsters and sell them on. But just chucking more money at it doesn't mean you'll produce better players (it means you can attract the best youngsters by paying them more, which is a different thing).

It's up to individual clubs to judge what is best for them. If you take money out the first team budget and put it in to youth development and end up getting relegated as a result, then that will probably lead to cuts in the youth budget in the following seasons which means you are back to square one, or worse, with your first team in a lower league.

[ayrmad]

5 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

But that implies that clubs don't currently see youth development as a priority, which is ridiculous. Every single club in Scotland is desperate to produce quality youngsters and sell them on. But just chucking more money at it doesn't mean you'll produce better players (it means you can attract the best youngsters by paying them more, which is a different thing).

It's up to individual clubs to judge what is best for them. If you take money out the first team budget and put it in to youth development and end up getting relegated as a result, then that will probably lead to cuts in the youth budget in the following seasons which means you are back to square one, or worse, with your first team in a lower league.

It worked fine for Hamilton and they were relegated.

[capt_oats]

Having read (and re-read, there's a lot to unpack) Dundee's statement it largely seems designed to tell the fans what they want to hear (Yay! Fiscal responsibility! Booo! The SFA making demands on things like a Youth Academy having qualified coaches and people to run it) and ignores any of the really obvious elephants in the room.

Namely;
- they "already invest heavily" in their existing Academy teams yet their current Academy set up doesn't match Championship and League 1 clubs in standards? (As I posted yesterday CAS criteria has been in place for years no one should have been surprised by minimum standards being required.)
- Dundee would have to "increase its financial investment" to even be accepted into Performance Progressive level. Really? They'd have to spend a prohibitive (given they chose not to invest) amount of money on their current set up just to be on par with ICT, Ayr United and St Mirren? Again, that hardly reflects well on their Academy as it is at the moment.
-  The Assessment Panel "was not convinced" they'd be ready on time? That's hardly a ringing endorsement for whoever was making their pitch.
- They've known about Project Brave for over a year but wouldn't appoint the bare minimum staff until they knew which banding they were going to be in. Yet McCann signed 11 players during the summer (on top of what he had) including guys like Spanish Jon who's played 26 mins of football since he signed. It's not a stretch to think that the wages they're paying even one or two of those players to sit on the bench would have allowed them to recruit a few staff in order to comfortably meet the criteria for the tier level they were aiming for, instead they chose not to and have been binned off to the 3rd tier based on the criteria they currently meet.

Ultimately it's Dundee's money, it's up to them what they do with it and not chucking money they don't have at stuff is a good thing. Tbh, my takeaway from the statement that went out yesterday is more that it seems their current academy set-up is non-existent and at best they're not prioritising an Academy or at worst they haven't got a clue what they're doing when it comes to running an Academy.

If they're choosing to prioritise the first team with their funding then that's fine, no one can really argue but that's not the SFA's fault. Similarly, if Dundee (a club with pretensions of Top 6 football), don't have an Academy infrastructure that's even on a par with ICT or Ayr then that's not really the SFA's fault either.

[Bazil85]

16 hours ago, coprolite said:

 

I advocate a no blame culture.

 

Same... Apart from the people that run our game. They're w*nks 

[Bazil85]

14 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

But that implies that clubs don't currently see youth development as a priority, which is ridiculous. Every single club in Scotland is desperate to produce quality youngsters and sell them on. But just chucking more money at it doesn't mean you'll produce better players (it means you can attract the best youngsters by paying them more, which is a different thing).

It's up to individual clubs to judge what is best for them. If you take money out the first team budget and put it in to youth development and end up getting relegated as a result, then that will probably lead to cuts in the youth budget in the following seasons which means you are back to square one, or worse, with your first team in a lower league.

Of course it's one of their priorities, none of my posts imply youth development is not a priority. But are you saying to me if clubs were forced to have more than half their first 11 as home grown talent it wouldn't push for further youth investment? If it had been in place for say 15-20 years I'm pretty sure teams like Sevco wouldn't be spending millions on wages for a near 40 year old Portugese defender and Celtic wouldn't be investing so heavily in foreign talent. They'd both have to further prioritise their (frankly massively disappointing in recent years) youth academies. They would of had to focus much more money on developing youth. It's proven in other countries, the more investment in youth football the better the results so yes I think we have to do something more than what Project Brave suggest. 

It's been up to clubs to judge what is best all along. That's so far meant we've missed out on the last 10 major tournaments. Current approach isn't working, we're been left behind by other nations that are throwing money at youth football and for me the massively divisive Project Brave doesn't go close to far enough to sort the rot. 

[Bazil85]

14 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

But that implies that clubs don't currently see youth development as a priority, which is ridiculous. Every single club in Scotland is desperate to produce quality youngsters and sell them on. But just chucking more money at it doesn't mean you'll produce better players (it means you can attract the best youngsters by paying them more, which is a different thing).

It's up to individual clubs to judge what is best for them. If you take money out the first team budget and put it in to youth development and end up getting relegated as a result, then that will probably lead to cuts in the youth budget in the following seasons which means you are back to square one, or worse, with your first team in a lower league.

also on the relegation point, that's why it has to be every club. Top to bottom, one of the rules of the game. Right now with such small leagues playing youth is a risk. Remove the risk by having every team in the same boat. Not like it'll make the Scottish football product any worse than it currently is either tbh. 

[DA Baracus]

I can't think of a Scottish club whose regular starting 11 isn't at least half Scottish, with the possible exception of Sevco (someone will need to confirm).

[DA Baracus]

Anyway, Project Brave is a bag of shite and it's very disappointing, but not surprising, to see clubs falling over each other in a scramble to be part of it

[Crilly]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Ultimately it's Dundee's money, it's up to them what they do with it and not chucking money they don't have at stuff is a good thing. Tbh, my takeaway from the statement that went out yesterday is more that it seems their current academy set-up is non-existent and at best they're not prioritising an Academy or at worst they haven't got a clue what they're doing when it comes to running an Academy.

If they're choosing to prioritise the first team with their funding then that's fine, no one can really argue but that's not the SFA's fault. Similarly, if Dundee (a club with pretensions of Top 6 football), don't have an Academy infrastructure that's even on a par with ICT or Ayr then that's not really the SFA's fault either.

Pretty much my take on Dundee's situation after reading their statement. Outwith Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs, Dundee must have the largest budget in the Premiership.  Whatever they've been doing with that money they clearly having been spending it on their academy.   I can only assume therefore, that until now their business plan hasn't focused on youth development and selling home grown players on for profit.  Its their call, but I can understand their intention not to overtstretch themselves financially.  Still you'd expect them to be a bit above the level they'll be at. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Anyway, Project Brave is a bag of shite and it's very disappointing, but not surprising, to see clubs falling over each other in a scramble to be part of it

Self interest, fewer clubs access more of the money available from grants.

[craigkillie]

14 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I can't think of a Scottish club whose regular starting 11 isn't at least half Scottish, with the possible exception of Sevco (someone will need to confirm).

 

8 of the 12 clubs have given more than half of their starts to Scottish players this season, while Celtic are just a tiny bit under.  Rangers, Thistle and Motherwell have the lowest returns in that respect.  Obviously these numbers might be tweaked slightly if you moved towards homegrown players as defined by coming through a Scottish youth system - there are some Irish and English guys who might be included under that definition.
 

Average number of Scottish players in starting XI in the 2017/18 Scottish Premiership:

Killie: 9.77
St Johnstone: 7.77
Hibs: 7.00
Aberdeen: 6.33
Hearts: 5.92
Dundee: 5.85
Hamilton 5.85
Ross County: 5.69
Celtic: 5.42
Rangers: 3.75
Partick Thistle: 3.69
Motherwell: 2.33

 

 

 

[craigkillie]

Perhaps more interestingly in the context of Project Brave, we can which clubs are fielding players (of any nationality) who have come through their own youth system.  We see that the top 7 clubs on this list are all clubs who were included in the Elite Level.  Rangers are the only outliers here.

 

Average number of own youth team players in starting XI in the 2017/18 Scottish Premiership:

Hamilton: 4.38
Killie: 3.69
Hearts: 3.08
Celtic: 2.75
Hibs: 2.61
Aberdeen: 1.58
Motherwell: 1.42
Dundee: 1.15
St Johnstone 0.85
Ross County: 0.69
Rangers: 0.58
Partick Thistle: 0.54

 

[Bazil85]

1 hour ago, DA Baracus said:

I can't think of a Scottish club whose regular starting 11 isn't at least half Scottish, with the possible exception of Sevco (someone will need to confirm).

The rule is not just half Scottish players, it's half home grown, club devloped players. Sevco 100% don't meet criteria and Celtic only have three club developed players that would (potentially) get into their strongest 11. Arguably only Tierney would be in the very strongest team Celtic could field. 

[Bazil85]

40 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Perhaps more interestingly in the context of Project Brave, we can which clubs are fielding players (of any nationality) who have come through their own youth system.  We see that the top 7 clubs on this list are all clubs who were included in the Elite Level.  Rangers are the only outliers here.

 

Average number of own youth team players in starting XI in the 2017/18 Scottish Premiership:

Hamilton: 4.38
Killie: 3.69
Hearts: 3.08
Celtic: 2.75
Hibs: 2.61
Aberdeen: 1.58
Motherwell: 1.42
Dundee: 1.15
St Johnstone 0.85
Ross County: 0.69
Rangers: 0.58
Partick Thistle: 0.54

 

Cheers for the info, it's really helpful. Now imagine if the rules of the game were that number HAD to be no lower than six? Would do wonders for our national team, give an even playing field as all clubs would be bound by the same rules. Would also say it wouldn't overlay impact the SPFL product, it's absolutely rotten right now, quality of our game can't get a great deal lower. Hence why Scottish clubs (bar Celtic) do nothing in European qualifyers. 

[Auld Heid]

A pointless exercise - look how unsuccessful the so called 'elite teams' have been in the Irn Bru cup against lower league opposition.   Players brought up in a protected environment,  out their depth when stuck in a competitive match.