Bazil85 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 20 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: Interest in England and beyond? Really. How's this measured? Have you something more convincing than the anecdotal pish of Souness and Rae? So can I just clarify, you DON'T think interest in something can be generated by more competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 14 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: So can I just clarify, you DON'T think interest in something can be generated by more competition? Not to any significant extent in terms of overseas TV audiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 The best way forward for me is Celtic and Sevco leaving Scotland. Celtic are so far ahead right now and soon enough Sevco will be up there as well and we'll be back to the 90s and 00s of two teams winning the league dozens of points above everyone else. In an ever more connected world this will be disastrous for those teams because they'll continue to fall further and further behind European competition. We're already seeing youngsters that have more interest in the EPL and Spanish league than back home, that trend will continue. They'll fall further behind in Europe than they already are and I'm not talking the big boys in Europe, they'll fall out of the second tier teams as well. Them leaving and going to either England or some kind of Atlantic league ticks a lot of boxes for me and I think it's something fans of these teams should actively be campaigning for. (Obviously Celtic wouldn't until they secure 10 in a row) The stumbling block is obviously, who would take them? Celtic and Sevco can reach their potential. They are huge teams that can be global power houses. A lot of fans must want some actual competition and not winning a league where realistically they'll only ever have each other for competition on a consistent basis Yes Scottish football would have less money but right now all the other clubs are just making up numbers. I'd much rather less money and competition. Put all the games on at 3pm on a Saturday and have us a smaller scale, exciting competitive league structure It would help the development of Scottish players. Sevco and Celtic would still have youth structures developing players, they'd be tested against better opponents week in week out and a level below that in the Scottish leagues we would see more younger players playing as money would be less. Don't see much of a downside (for fans) and why fans of any team wouldn't find this attractive. To clarify though, I don't see this happening in a million years. Football is now all about money and the powers in Scotland would never allow it/ England wouldn't want them/ Atlantic league won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Not to any significant extent in terms of overseas TV audiences. It's been mentioned above other countries where football maybe isn't as big as Scotland that have better international TV deals/ Interest. I don't see how the same logic can't be applied to Scotland. I've never known a situation where people think more interest in something won't result in more income. to my knowledge it's never happened in football. Again I'm not talking about us becoming the next EPL, I just feel more competition would put us in a better negotiating position. I think that's a very fair comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 7 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: It's been mentioned above other countries where football maybe isn't as big as Scotland that have better international TV deals/ Interest. I don't see how the same logic can't be applied to Scotland. I've never known a situation where people think more interest in something won't result in more income. to my knowledge it's never happened in football. Again I'm not talking about us becoming the next EPL, I just feel more competition would put us in a better negotiating position. I think that's a very fair comment. Again though, you're forging a link whose existence you really can provide no evidence for. A more competitive league would not generate sufficient additional overseas interest to generate significant additional income. You simply have not established that it would create more income and you simply have not established that more lucrative TV deals elsewhere are related to, let alone are reliant upon, a greater degree of competition for the title. You actually talk lots of sense regarding the OF's departure being desirable for the rest of us. You're also right about greater equality being more important than gross income. Leave it there. More equality in sporting competition is desirable in its own terms and doesn't need tethered to the erroneous belief that it would create more overall income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazil85 Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Again though, you're forging a link whose existence you really can provide no evidence for. A more competitive league would not generate sufficient additional overseas interest to generate significant additional income. You simply have not established that it would create more income and you simply have not established that more lucrative TV deals elsewhere are related to, let alone are reliant upon, a greater degree of competition for the title. You actually talk lots of sense regarding the OF's departure being desirable for the rest of us. You're also right about greater equality being more important than gross income. Leave it there. More equality in sporting competition is desirable in its own terms and doesn't need tethered to the erroneous belief that it would create more overall income. I don't think it's fair to ask for unwavering evidence when we have no point of reference. Mine is simply an opinion. I base my opinion on the undoubted fact Interest = Money. I don't like it nor to I agree with it but it is the way of the footballing world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 So how much money is flowing from Scotland (or UK) to Denmark, Greece, Belgium, Turkey, Austria, the Czech Rep or Israel? These are more "interesting" leagues so presumably the viewing figures and accordingly value of rights of substantial and increasing. You then totally ignore your own argument on the "Rangers & Celtic to EPL" line. If more and more Scottish fans are being lost to the 'bigger and brighter' EPL and La Liga clearly having a pair of Scottish clubs move into EPL is only going to be terrible news for non-OF Scottish football. Media coverage and so forth are badly enough skewed as it is, but it would clearly become a fully 2-tier consideration, like has happened with the pro-teams and club rugby. How is there any equality in that? Also - it's partly semantics but people always say they should "leave" or "move". Where would they be leaving or moving? They'd still be playing in Glasgow every other weekend and would in all probability leave 'B' teams behind in any case. People talk about it as if they'd be relocating to Dublin, Copenhagen or Johannesburg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 2 hours ago, DA Baracus said: If games were played at the same time as the international games then teams would just refuse to release their players to their respective international squads ...which already happens on a regular basis anyway (due to 'injuries' certain players pick up at certain times)... ...but if that happened wholesale it could be a boon since it would mean youngsters being called up to the national team to fill in for senior players and gaining good experience that way. 2 hours ago, Tartantony said: I know it's all about ideas but that's all a bit mental. We don't need to go all out complicated, just keep it simple. If it can't be playoffs then at least a bigger league where teams only play each other twice. ...well, anything not 'mental' has no doubt already been thought of and rejected... ..and they're about as likely to happen as the greedy gutses at the top agreeing to much more equitable revenue sharing or shared gate receipts for league matches - i.e. no chance at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 46 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said: Also - it's partly semantics but people always say they should "leave" or "move". Where would they be leaving or moving? They'd still be playing in Glasgow every other weekend and would in all probability leave 'B' teams behind in any case. People talk about it as if they'd be relocating to Dublin, Copenhagen or Johannesburg. I've got no problem with the language employed to be honest. Saying they'd 'leave' is metaphorical I suppose in that the clubs would physically stay put. However, I'd certainly want any departure from our game to be absolute. I'd be firmly behind them 'leaving', but only if that meant that nothing residual was left to sour and distort our game further in the form of B teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabidAl Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 18 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: The idea of fewer points being available to higher placed sides does actually have a certain appeal, but to be honest, there shouldn't be any need for such gimmickry. Neither should play offs be necessary. Leagues should be about the long haul, while cups provide the sprints. What we need is a far far greater degree of regulation to control the access to resources that individual clubs can have. A simple change to 2 points for a win for all teams would be a legitimate way to peg back the advantage of the best-resourced teams; they hardly need the advantage that they gain from 3 points for a win - as they win more games, the third point is basically a bonus point for those with the most money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 Celtic and Rangers aren't leaving Scottish football, certainly not for English football. They have big matchday crowds, especially when they are doing well, but that's comparable to teams like Sunderland or Aston Villa doing well. In terms of viewing figures, as has been covered here on many occasions, people in Scotland watch the Old Firm games, Scottish and Irish ex-pats in Anglophone countries watch it but it doesn't bring in viewing figures comparable to top English games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 I read an interesting article on English academies - http://www.trainingground.guru/articles/academy-audit Mark Crane investigated which Academies were best to send his son to and decided to see which Academies were most successful at creating professional footballers. Manchester Utd were the most, with 70 players playing in the English leagues who were trained in the Utd Academy. Cheltenham Town were the worst with only one player (former ICT striker Marley Watkins) playing professional football after attending their academy. I thought it might be interesting to do a similar exercise for Scottish clubs so I did it for the top two divisions. Project Brave Level Premiership Championship Total Celtic Elite 15 13 28 Heart of Midlothian Elite 11 11 22 Rangers Elite 4 15 19 Hibernian Elite 12 6 18 Hamilton Academical Elite 12 4 16 Aberdeen Elite 6 8 14 Motherwell Elite 7 7 14 Kilmarnock Elite 8 5 13 Dundee United Progressive 7 5 12 Livingston 7 5 12 St Mirren Progressive 5 7 12 Falkirk Progressive 1 9 10 St Johnstone Progressive 6 3 9 Partick Thistle Progressive 3 5 8 Queen of the South 1 7 8 Dunfermline Athletic Performance 1 6 7 Inverness Caledonian Thistle Progressive 2 4 6 Morton Performance 5 5 Ross County Progressive 2 3 5 Dundee Performance 4 4 Airdrieonians 3 3 Ayr United Projgressive 3 3 Raith Rovers Performance 3 3 Cowdenbeath Performance 1 1 2 Montrose 2 2 Queen's Park Performance 1 1 2 Clyde 1 1 Elgin City 1 1 Stenhousemuir Progressive 1 1 Stranraer 1 1 Albion Rovers 0 Alloa Athletic 0 Annan Athletic 0 Arbroath 0 Berwick Rangers 0 Brechin City 0 Dumbarton 0 East Fife Performance 0 Forfar Athletic 0 Peterhead 0 Stirling Albion Progressive 0 The clubs selected for the Elite do appear to produce significant numbers of professional players, albeit a lot playing at a level below their club (the main pathway for Rangers youth players seems to be signing for Dumbarton). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 On 27/12/2017 at 16:52, Bazil85 said: The best way forward for me is Celtic and Sevco leaving Scotland. Celtic are so far ahead right now and soon enough Sevco will be up there as well and we'll be back to the 90s and 00s of two teams winning the league dozens of points above everyone else. In an ever more connected world this will be disastrous for those teams because they'll continue to fall further and further behind European competition. We're already seeing youngsters that have more interest in the EPL and Spanish league than back home, that trend will continue. They'll fall further behind in Europe than they already are and I'm not talking the big boys in Europe, they'll fall out of the second tier teams as well. Them leaving and going to either England or some kind of Atlantic league ticks a lot of boxes for me and I think it's something fans of these teams should actively be campaigning for. (Obviously Celtic wouldn't until they secure 10 in a row) The stumbling block is obviously, who would take them? Celtic and Sevco can reach their potential. They are huge teams that can be global power houses. A lot of fans must want some actual competition and not winning a league where realistically they'll only ever have each other for competition on a consistent basis Yes Scottish football would have less money but right now all the other clubs are just making up numbers. I'd much rather less money and competition. Put all the games on at 3pm on a Saturday and have us a smaller scale, exciting competitive league structure It would help the development of Scottish players. Sevco and Celtic would still have youth structures developing players, they'd be tested against better opponents week in week out and a level below that in the Scottish leagues we would see more younger players playing as money would be less. Don't see much of a downside (for fans) and why fans of any team wouldn't find this attractive. To clarify though, I don't see this happening in a million years. Football is now all about money and the powers in Scotland would never allow it/ England wouldn't want them/ Atlantic league won't happen. Completely disagree. I want us to win the league by beating them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 3 hours ago, ICTChris said: I read an interesting article on English academies - http://www.trainingground.guru/articles/academy-audit Mark Crane investigated which Academies were best to send his son to and decided to see which Academies were most successful at creating professional footballers. Manchester Utd were the most, with 70 players playing in the English leagues who were trained in the Utd Academy. Cheltenham Town were the worst with only one player (former ICT striker Marley Watkins) playing professional football after attending their academy. I thought it might be interesting to do a similar exercise for Scottish clubs so I did it for the top two divisions. Project Brave Level Premiership Championship Total Celtic Elite 15 13 28 Heart of Midlothian Elite 11 11 22 Rangers Elite 4 15 19 Hibernian Elite 12 6 18 Hamilton Academical Elite 12 4 16 Aberdeen Elite 6 8 14 Motherwell Elite 7 7 14 Kilmarnock Elite 8 5 13 Dundee United Progressive 7 5 12 Livingston 7 5 12 St Mirren Progressive 5 7 12 Falkirk Progressive 1 9 10 St Johnstone Progressive 6 3 9 Partick Thistle Progressive 3 5 8 Queen of the South 1 7 8 Dunfermline Athletic Performance 1 6 7 Inverness Caledonian Thistle Progressive 2 4 6 Morton Performance 5 5 Ross County Progressive 2 3 5 Dundee Performance 4 4 Airdrieonians 3 3 Ayr United Projgressive 3 3 Raith Rovers Performance 3 3 Cowdenbeath Performance 1 1 2 Montrose 2 2 Queen's Park Performance 1 1 2 Clyde 1 1 Elgin City 1 1 Stenhousemuir Progressive 1 1 Stranraer 1 1 Albion Rovers 0 Alloa Athletic 0 Annan Athletic 0 Arbroath 0 Berwick Rangers 0 Brechin City 0 Dumbarton 0 East Fife Performance 0 Forfar Athletic 0 Peterhead 0 Stirling Albion Progressive 0 The clubs selected for the Elite do appear to produce significant numbers of professional players, albeit a lot playing at a level below their club (the main pathway for Rangers youth players seems to be signing for Dumbarton). Thats a good bit of work - my only hesitence about it would be that a success criteria for an academy would also be how many of their graduates are playing down south as well as in Scotland. I'd imagine that an explicit goal for academies is to sell/recieve compensation for the players that they produce to sustain themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, Swello said: Thats a good bit of work - my only hesitence about it would be that a success criteria for an academy would also be how many of their graduates are playing down south as well as in Scotland. I'd imagine that an explicit goal for academies is to sell/recieve compensation for the players that they produce to sustain themselves... It would be good to do that but contrary to appearances I do have a life and don't have access to data for this. It must exist though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfishtrombone Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 On 23/12/2017 at 08:52, Bazil85 said: Celtic budget is larger than every other team in the league combined bar the tribute act. The tribute act have a budget of less than half what Celtic have. There is no competition for our league, the Champions are known before a ball is kicked, the football is rank rotten and the price is already too high for the product quality. Also even if the tributes get to the level Rangers were at with Celtic a coin toss for the title is also not marketable when you have leagues like EPL, La Liga and Bundesliga out there. Of course there will be exceptions in teams winning occasional trophies, do you think St Johnstone, St Mirren, ICT winning an occasional trophy makes us more marketable to worldwide audiences? Do you think another team other than Celtic winning a trophy once in a blue moon constitutes competition? Why care about worldwide audiences. Scottish football needs to appeal to Scottish supporters. I couldn't give a toss about the Bundesliga or the EPL or their nations opinion about Scottish football. I'd imagine they don't give a flying f**k about Scottish football either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectre Posted April 6, 2018 Share Posted April 6, 2018 5 hours ago, ICTChris said: I read an interesting article on English academies - http://www.trainingground.guru/articles/academy-audit Mark Crane investigated which Academies were best to send his son to and decided to see which Academies were most successful at creating professional footballers. Manchester Utd were the most, with 70 players playing in the English leagues who were trained in the Utd Academy. Cheltenham Town were the worst with only one player (former ICT striker Marley Watkins) playing professional football after attending their academy. I thought it might be interesting to do a similar exercise for Scottish clubs so I did it for the top two divisions. Project Brave Level Premiership Championship Total Celtic Elite 15 13 28 Heart of Midlothian Elite 11 11 22 Rangers Elite 4 15 19 Hibernian Elite 12 6 18 Hamilton Academical Elite 12 4 16 Aberdeen Elite 6 8 14 Motherwell Elite 7 7 14 Kilmarnock Elite 8 5 13 Dundee United Progressive 7 5 12 Livingston 7 5 12 St Mirren Progressive 5 7 12 Falkirk Progressive 1 9 10 St Johnstone Progressive 6 3 9 Partick Thistle Progressive 3 5 8 Queen of the South 1 7 8 Dunfermline Athletic Performance 1 6 7 Inverness Caledonian Thistle Progressive 2 4 6 Morton Performance 5 5 Ross County Progressive 2 3 5 Dundee Performance 4 4 Airdrieonians 3 3 Ayr United Projgressive 3 3 Raith Rovers Performance 3 3 Cowdenbeath Performance 1 1 2 Montrose 2 2 Queen's Park Performance 1 1 2 Clyde 1 1 Elgin City 1 1 Stenhousemuir Progressive 1 1 Stranraer 1 1 Albion Rovers 0 Alloa Athletic 0 Annan Athletic 0 Arbroath 0 Berwick Rangers 0 Brechin City 0 Dumbarton 0 East Fife Performance 0 Forfar Athletic 0 Peterhead 0 Stirling Albion Progressive 0 The clubs selected for the Elite do appear to produce significant numbers of professional players, albeit a lot playing at a level below their club (the main pathway for Rangers youth players seems to be signing for Dumbarton). Nice bit of Work Chris, Although I am curious as to how you sorted players who were at multiple clubs. Stuart Armstrong, for example, was at Dundee united and Inverness for brief spells, although did most of his development at boys club level. What also be interesting to see is if there is an age effect at some of the clubs. Youth academies change over time and what the youth academies are doing just now is probably a fair bit different to how some of the older players currently playing in the league did in their youth. Also, with regards to Man U and their academy yielding the most success in England. I believe they opted out of the EPPP, which is the strategy in place down south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 5 hours ago, Swordfishtrombone said: Why care about worldwide audiences. Scottish football needs to appeal to Scottish supporters. I couldn't give a toss about the Bundesliga or the EPL or their nations opinion about Scottish football. I'd imagine they don't give a flying f**k about Scottish football either. This is spot on. Hand on heart I would rather watch Motherwell v Ross County than any game in the EPL. However, if I go to the pub on a Sunday with my friends all I will hear about is how their meaningless Fantasy Football team is doing, what coupons they have got on for ‘Super Sunday’ and they will be able to tell me in detail everything that happened on Match of the Day. I was out with a friend last week and started talking about the Dundee v Hearts game, and how there was two disputable diving decisions, Dundee playing well, quite a lot of exciting action over the 90 minutes...he couldn’t have cared less, he is in the mindset that if it’s not rammed down your throat by Sky Sports News then it’s not worth watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 Nice bit of Work Chris, Although I am curious as to how you sorted players who were at multiple clubs. Stuart Armstrong, for example, was at Dundee united and Inverness for brief spells, although did most of his development at boys club level. What also be interesting to see is if there is an age effect at some of the clubs. Youth academies change over time and what the youth academies are doing just now is probably a fair bit different to how some of the older players currently playing in the league did in their youth When a player was at multiple clubs as a youth I selected the team that had him closest to his move into first team football. So Stuart Armstrong is down as being a product of Dundee Utd rather than Inverness. Another example that stuck in my mind was Lewis Morgan, who I had down as a St Mirren product rather than Rangers. Obviously you could go further into the analysis and look at how long each player spent with each club and try and assess each players impact etc but I didn’t really have the time to do that.You are right as well about the differences in youth systems compared to years ago, that has to be another caveat. For example, Lee Miller came through at Falkirk in 2001,there will have been huge changes in their system since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the west curve Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I can think of 12 players that came through the Killie academy playing Premiership football in the last 12 months. There are maybe more but the 12 are, Boyd,Naismith,Bell,Cameron,Graham,Hawkshaw,Wilson,Kiltie,O’Hara,McKenzie,Taylor and Frizzell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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