Scotland Centre Backs

[KingRocketman II]

2 hours ago, cameron2000 said:

I’m sorry but you’re judgement on Hanley is based on matches several years ago. He drastically improved his level from even 2 years ago - especially through this season. I won’t be surprised if he earns plenty plaudits in the Prem next year.

He’s literally playing for a team running away with the championship in which he’s put under great pressure to play out from the back in tight areas every game.

Still though we’re desperate to find out how any Centre Back other than him in the league is doing when statistically he’s been the best.

I'm fine with having him in the squad. My point was that Gallagher was excellent in every Scotland game he played up to Nov 2020. I am glad that Hanley has improved but that wouldn't justify him walking in to replace Gallagher (it was a choice between the both of them) based on a) Gallagher's recent Scotland form and b) Hanley's previous Scotland form. 

If Gallagher gets injured, is not playing at club level and/or loses form then we look to other centre halves in the squad. 

[HalfCutNinja]

1 minute ago, KingRocketman II said:

I'm fine with having him in the squad. My point was that Gallagher was excellent in every Scotland game he played up to Nov 2020. I am glad that Hanley has improved but that wouldn't justify him walking in to replace Gallagher (it was a choice between the both of them) based on a) Gallagher's recent Scotland form and b) Hanley's previous Scotland form. 

If Gallagher gets injured, is not playing at club level and/or loses form then we look to other centre halves in the squad. 

Hanley has played two games for Scotland in the last five years. His previous international appearances are of no relevance now.

He is playing at a considerably higher level than Gallagher and excelling every week. He's 100% guaranteed to be in the squad, and if it was a straight choice between the two you'd probably lean towards Hanley.

[Scumjob]

We'll pick what at most 5 centre backs (probably less) in the squad in addition to Tierney and McTominay who will probably play at the back but will still be considered for other positions, especially if the likes of Robertson or Jack/McGregor take knocks.

I actually think the Tierney-Gallagher-McTominay combination is nailed on for the Euros if all are fit. The question is who does Clark take as backup.

I'd like to see the following called up for a look in addition to McTominay and Tierney assuming Cooper is injured:

Gallagher - As above I think he starts if fit, the big lad had looked assured so far and done very little wrong in a Scotland shirt. His height is also a major asset and he's well suited for the middle of the back three.

Hanley - I don't particularly like Hanley, he's got all the tools and always seems solid enough right up until the bombscare error that costs you a goal. By all accounts he's going well at the moment though and he us playing at a good level so we'd be foolish to ignore him.

McKenna - McKenna actually reminds me a fair bit of Hanley with the saving grace being he's maybe still young enough to suggest he can cut the errors out. Playing at a reasonable level too so worth a look.

Hendry - Earning rave reviews in Belgium which regardless of feelings on abroad leagues is probably a slightly higher level than Scotland, at least at the top end of the league. Been linked with Wolves, Burnley and Werder Bremen too off the back of his current form so should at least be in the squad to reward the improvement and give Clark the chance to see whether he's a suitable backup for McTominay.

McIntyre - He's been going really well in the Championship and worth a look as well in my opinion. Looks a solid prospect and we should have half of one eye on the more longer term future. Let's have Clark take a look and judge where he's at even if we don't cap him yet.

I don't mind Considine but he's a known quantity and only ever going to be a backup.

Over the three games I'd probably start Tierney and Gallagher with Mctominay in the Austria game as that's as tried and tested a combination as we have. Against Israel move McTominay into midfield as we need to try and dominate that game and give Hanley or Hendry the start on the right to see if they look credible in the system. Then against the Faroes I'd do the same but give McInryre and McKenna a half each as well.

To confirm I think right now Tierney-Gallagher-McTominay is our starting 3. It would be nice to  have the option to be able to use McTominay in midfield hence giving one of Hanley or Hendry a chance to put their hand up against Israel. However we've looked more solid than for a long time with the first three and cannot afford to compromise that if they're not up to the job. The upside of McTominay in midfield if Hanley or Hendry slots in nicely means it's worth a go though.

Beyond that Clark just needs to have a look over these players and decide who he sees as backup options in the event of injuries. With the exception of Gallagher the four others are in a pot with Cooper and Considine as backups at the moment.

[KingRocketman II]

17 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

Hanley has played two games for Scotland in the last five years. His previous international appearances are of no relevance now.

He is playing at a considerably higher level than Gallagher and excelling every week. He's 100% guaranteed to be in the squad, and if it was a straight choice between the two you'd probably lean towards Hanley.

I wouldn't and think Clarke would stick with Gallagher given his selection coincided with much better defensive performances - unless he doesn't play much club football for the rest of this season. As said - that is if it is a clear choice between them both. 

[HalfCutNinja]

1 minute ago, KingRocketman II said:

I wouldn't and think Clarke would stick with Gallagher given his selection coincided with much better defensive performances - unless he doesn't play much club football for the rest of this season. As said - that is if it is a clear choice between them both. 

I think he maybe would too but its really the system that has lead to the improved defensive performances as much as the personnel. 

Plus he obviously likes Hanley as he's called him up every chance he's had so far.

The reality is we have a whole load of CB's who are of a similar level. McKenna, Cooper. Hanley. Gallagher etc are all interchangeable and any of them can be brought in as required without really altering the quality or balance of the side.

Its a good thing really. The one issue we have is RCB as ideally we want McTominay in midfield. 

As I said before longer term I think either John Souttar or Jamie Hamilton could be the solution there.

[KingRocketman II]

8 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

I think he maybe would too but its really the system that has lead to the improved defensive performances as much as the personnel. 

Plus he obviously likes Hanley as he's called him up every chance he's had so far.

The reality is we have a whole load of CB's who are of a similar level. McKenna, Cooper. Hanley. Gallagher etc are all interchangeable and any of them can be brought in as required without really altering the quality or balance of the side.

Its a good thing really. The one issue we have is RCB as ideally we want McTominay in midfield. 

As I said before longer term I think either John Souttar or Jamie Hamilton could be the solution there.

re Souttar, I think having him back (post Euros realistically) would give us the option of having someone who is able to carry the ball out of defence and hit a good pass to initiate an attack. That is the reason that I believe Clarke perseveres with McTominay in the back three despite everyone agreeing he would be a great addition to the midfield. Souttar shares similar attributes to McTominay as a defender - not the greatest or strongest of our centre halves but very comfortable on the ball which gives a great option if playing out from the back. 

Hope he can get over his injury spate. 

 

[HalfCutNinja]

3 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

re Souttar, I think having him back (post Euros realistically) would give us the option of having someone who is able to carry the ball out of defence and hit a good pass to initiate an attack. That is the reason that I believe Clarke perseveres with McTominay in the back three despite everyone agreeing he would be a great addition to the midfield. Souttar shares similar attributes to McTominay as a defender - not the greatest or strongest of our centre halves but very comfortable on the ball which gives a great option if playing out from the back. 

Hope he can get over his injury spate. 

 

Fingers crossed for him, but he's done the same achilles three times now so who knows how it will go.

I actually checked last night, apparently he started running two months ago. So he's quite far along, and they think maybe he can play before the end of this season but are really targeting the start of next season.

He will need to be handled carefully and realistically its at least 6-8 months from now before he will be match fit. Maybe if it goes well he could be back in the Scotland squad before the end of this year.

Hamilton I really like, remarkable composure for a kid and can really play. He has a great chance but isn't ready yet. Will be interesting to see what happens with him in the summer, he was at Brighton in January so they could have a look at him. 

[ewan14]

14 hours ago, HalfCutNinja said:

He won't be ready. Starts training right about now, but will be a long way from match fitness.

I actually think eventually him and Jamie Hamilton will probably be our best options to play RCB, both mobile and can play a bit. Both for the future though now just now, and Souttar is dependent on getting back to his best.

Jack Hendry bound to be in this squad too, but generally plays central.

Souttar looked o.k.

[ewan14]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

My head literally exploded reading about Souttar, Porteous, Hendry and then seeing fucking WhoScored ratings being used to tout the fucking cart horse Hanley.

Absolutely mad. You've got a crock who isn't even a good CB, then two rash, immature, weak CBs who constantly give away daft fouls. Hanley we already know struggles.

Jason Kerr would be in the squad if he did not ....

[ewan14]

1 hour ago, Rodhull said:

I mean wasn't Hanley a regular centre back in the Premier league at one point for Blackburn and Newcastle, likely back when he was putting in those terrible performances for Scotland? I'm not sure why playing well in the league below now is an example of how he has improved so much?

Probably a good chance if Norwich do get promoted they'll buy another centre back and he won't play often just like last time they got promoted.

Maybe he has just improved ? 

[Scumjob]

12 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

Fingers crossed for him, but he's done the same achilles three times now so who knows how it will go.

I actually checked last night, apparently he started running two months ago. So he's quite far along, and they think maybe he can play before the end of this season but are really targeting the start of next season.

He will need to be handled carefully and realistically its at least 6-8 months from now before he will be match fit. Maybe if it goes well he could be back in the Scotland squad before the end of this year.

Hamilton I really like, remarkable composure for a kid and can really play. He has a great chance but isn't ready yet. Will be interesting to see what happens with him in the summer, he was at Brighton in January so they could have a look at him. 

I think the key for us is that a couple centre backs can develop beyond Championship level. We actually have a clutch of reasonable players but many either have too many errors in them or part of their game that's just not quite up to it.

You can see the difference that players who establish themselves in the English Premier league make to the side. Having the likes of Tierney, Robertson, Armstrong, McGinn, McTominay and Fraser from that level allows us to get away with the paucity of comparable options up front and at the back.

If Hamilton went to Brighton and did well and Hendry did the same at Wolves whilst Cooper continues to do ok at Leeds we'd be much, much stronger at the back. It's a big ask though but least we have a couple players being linked.

[ewan14]

1 hour ago, HalfCutNinja said:

Hanley has played two games for Scotland in the last five years. His previous international appearances are of no relevance now.

He is playing at a considerably higher level than Gallagher and excelling every week. He's 100% guaranteed to be in the squad, and if it was a straight choice between the two you'd probably lean towards Hanley.

I think SSC is a fan of Hanley

[Rodhull]

12 minutes ago, ewan14 said:

Maybe he has just improved ? 

Yes having to play in a division below what you used to is always a sign of improvement? Not like the premier league is rife with amazing centre backs at every team.

[ewan14]

18 minutes ago, Rodhull said:

Yes having to play in a division below what you used to is always a sign of improvement? Not like the premier league is rife with amazing centre backs at every team.

Time will tell

[craigkillie]

Hanley was always OK for Scotland, no idea when this succession of "terrible performances" came because I don't remember them. He's clearly well worth a spot in the squad.

[HalfCutNinja]

1 hour ago, Scumjob said:

I think the key for us is that a couple centre backs can develop beyond Championship level. We actually have a clutch of reasonable players but many either have too many errors in them or part of their game that's just not quite up to it.

You can see the difference that players who establish themselves in the English Premier league make to the side. Having the likes of Tierney, Robertson, Armstrong, McGinn, McTominay and Fraser from that level allows us to get away with the paucity of comparable options up front and at the back.

If Hamilton went to Brighton and did well and Hendry did the same at Wolves whilst Cooper continues to do ok at Leeds we'd be much, much stronger at the back. It's a big ask though but least we have a couple players being linked.

Ideally that's what we want, or in any of the top seven or so leagues in Europe.

The premiership is by far the most physical league in the world, so it doesn't suit all players. Some of our players would maybe excel in France or Spain or Italy but not quite be big, quick and strong enough for the EPL. Look what Werner said recently.

Hendry is doing excellent abroad, but the EPL may swallow him up physically who knows. So a move to Germany or Portugal or wherever may be better.

We just want as many of our players playing every week at as good a level as possible, wherever that may be.

I looked at Cooper last night, he played two games in the top flight for Hull, and has fourteen so far this season. So in his career he has sixteen games in the top flight. Its not that impressive, given he turns 30 this year.

You look at guys like Armstrong (who should have gone sooner and is a good example to McGregor, Christie etc not to waste away up here) he's now been playing every week down there for almost three years, and what a difference it has made to him. 

John McGinn as well has a couple of years under his belt playing every week in the EPL, these guys are the example of what a sustained run of games at a very high level can do to a player. Imagine McGinn had gone to Celtic and spent the last three years playing against Hamilton, St Johnstone. Ross County, St Mirren etc. He'd barely have improved at all.

[Gordopolis]

Hanley was always OK for Scotland, no idea when this succession of "terrible performances" came because I don't remember them. He's clearly well worth a spot in the squad.

This keeps coming up. It's nonsense. Hanley was largely solid for a long spell (albeit with a rash moment in him). Not playing for his club side affected his international performances definitely but he was never the car crash people make him out to be.

[0Neils40yarder]

When discussing two players I always look at it this way;

Would Hanley start every week for Motherwell? Aye undoubtedly...

 

Would Gallagher start every week for Norwich? Highly unfuckinglikely

 

Hanley is a far superior player to Gallagher, it's that simple.

[Jamie_B]

Hanley should definitely be in the squad.

John Souttar shouldn’t even be talked about until he has a sustained period of good form in - at the very least - the top flight in Scotland. He’s only played about 30 games in the last three seasons. He’s missed this entire season through injury as well as the majority of last season, and when he did play before that it was in the worst defence in the Premiership by a mile. And it was hardly like he was a stand out who was single handedly keeping them in games when he did play. He’s 24 and since the start of the 2019/20 season has had three separate long term injuries that have kept him out for a minimum of four months, including two separate Achilles’ tendon ruptures. Whether he ever comes back to any sort of decent level is very much open to question.

[Ludo*1]

Gallagher isn't as good as some of the other CH's vying for the squad, but he's not let the country down so I'd be hesitant to remove him. I prefer Hanley & Hendry to him. I think Hendry gets an unfair time because he had a bad time of it at Celtic and that seems to have defined his career in the eyes of many. Hope he can fulfill the potential he showed whilst at Dens and starts getting into the squad again.

Gallagher, Caulker (another that's been recommended at times) & Hendry all had stints for Dundee at CH and Hendry looked a class above the other two. Granted, all were at differing stages of their career and can go on to improve but Hendry was considerably better than Gallagher was for Dundee at the ages they were at. Gallagher being with us from 22-24 and Hendry from 21-22.