What is the point of Labour ?

[Granny Danger]

40 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

I thought Corbyn's speech yesterday was pretty good (for him)

It was enough to convince me that voting labour at the next election is the only logical option for me as I'm now living in England.

Hoping all the same that few north of the border will be influenced by JC. The inept and inadequate Richard Leonard should ensure that they won't have much, if any success in Scotland.

I think Labour is the only choice for someone in England.  Like I’ve said before a minority Labour government reliant on SNP support would be the best option fot Scotland (and probably for the whole of the U.K.).

I don’t see us getting 56 seats again but I think we will win seats back from both Labour and the Tories.

 

 

[Detournement]

The right are worried.

[zidane's child]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The right are worried.

George Osborne written all over it!

[NotThePars]

It’ll never stop being funny that mild social democratic politics is viewed by large swathes of the media as our Great Leap Forward.

[Detournement]

8 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

It’ll never stop being funny that mild social democratic politics is viewed by large swathes of the media as our Great Leap Forward.

The worker ownership scheme isn't mild social democracy.

It's a 21st century response to the problem of the financialized economy being too big to fail and guaranteed by the taxpayer. There hasn't been anything like it anywhere.

[renton]

3 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The worker ownership scheme isn't mild social democracy.

It's a 21st century response to the problem of the financialized economy being too big to fail and guaranteed by the taxpayer. There hasn't been anything like it anywhere.

The Co-Op movement? The Anarcho-Syndicalists in Spain in Catalonia in the 30s? Of course they went a lot further with the theory....

[Fullerene]

12 hours ago, sureiknow said:

I may be though for many years.

Bit like JC the terrorism supporter of many years standing.

Does the UK really want an IRA supporter in Power?

He still supports terrorism around the World. 

 

Quick quiz:

Who was once described as a terrorist by Margaret Thatcher and yet four US presidents went to his funeral?

 

[Detournement]

15 minutes ago, renton said:

The Co-Op movement? The Anarcho-Syndicalists in Spain in Catalonia in the 30s? Of course they went a lot further with the theory....

The Co-op movement is/was different as it involved creating their own enterprises. There are obviously different systems of ownership/control proposed by various revolutionary groups but no one is suggesting a revolution here (apart from the heroic Laura Smith).

The Meidner plan in Sweden was a similar idea which failed to get enough traction to be properly implemented. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/03/workers-control-coops-wright-wolff-alperovitz/

Quote

 

The Meidner Plan, designed by the LO (Sweden’s labor central) in the 1970s, proposed an annual levy on profits that would then be converted into shares and placed in a central fund controlled by unions (which at the time represented over 80 percent of workers).

The funds could be democratically allocated to regional and sectoral development and, over time, majority ownership of the nation’s productive assets would shift from private owners to the Swedish working class.

But the issue of time turned out to be a major problem: throughout the transition, the Swedish economy would remain dependent on the same private corporations the plan sought to expropriate.

Warning that they would instinctively hold back long-term investment if their property rights were threatened, and arguing that efficiency, stability, and even living standards would suffer irreparable damage if the transfer of ownership took place, corporations mobilized aggressively against the Meidner Plan.

Countering business’s threat demanded a broad, aggressive response, including blocking corporations from running down their assets or leaving the country. But such a dramatic rupture with capitalism was not on the agenda, and the LO’s proposal — elegant in theory but contradictory economically and politically — went down in defeat and was never revived.

 

The reason that fairly radical ideas like worker ownership here and the Job Guarantee in the USA are beginning to get traction is because financial elites have completely lost control of their greed and the vast majority of people understand that the economy is fundamentally unfair and isn't going to improve without major state intervention. The right in the UK have completely run out of economic arguments, their only strategy is to try and drag Labour away from these policies.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Detournement

[welshbairn]

Venezuela gave it a go.

Chavez calls for democracy at work

 

[renton]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

The Co-op movement is/was different as it involved creating their own enterprises. There are obviously different systems of ownership/control proposed by various revolutionary groups but no one is suggesting a revolution here (apart from the heroic Laura Smith).

The Meidner plan in Sweden was a similar idea which failed to get enough traction to be properly implemented. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/03/workers-control-coops-wright-wolff-alperovitz/

The reason that fairly radical ideas like worker ownership here and the Job Guarantee in the USA are beginning to get traction is because financial elites have completely lost control of their greed and the vast majority of people understand that the economy is fundamentally unfair and isn't going to improve without major state intervention. The right in the UK have completely run out of economic arguments, there only strategy is to try and drag Labour away from these policies.

I would say setting up a new enterprise rather than transforming an existing one is a fairly semantic exercise. In terms of the governance of said enterprise, the full Co-Op model is far more radical than what Labour are proposing. Indeed, those Catalonian anarchists got along just fine, to the intense annoyance of the Soviets as well. Not that I am not lauding Labour's proposal, just that I'd stop short at inferring it as the last word in left wing radicalism.

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, renton said:

I would say setting up a new enterprise rather than transforming an existing one is a fairly semantic exercise. In terms of the governance of said enterprise, the full Co-Op model is far more radical than what Labour are proposing. Indeed, those Catalonian anarchists got along just fine, to the intense annoyance of the Soviets as well. Not that I am not lauding Labour's proposal, just that I'd stop short at inferring it as the last word in left wing radicalism.

There is a massive difference between setting up a co-op or social enterprise from scratch and putting workers on the boards of existing companies which have power and influence in society. Workers on the board of BAE, Rolls Royce and the Royal Mail sounds incredible to me. Forcing McDonalds, Starbucks, Google, Amazon and O2 to create UK structures which will have an element of worker control and more UK accountability sounds great. It will be met with great resistance but these are the kinds of ideas needed to create a future where British (or independent Scottish) workers can look forward to anything more than the constant grinding down of wages and terms and conditions.

[J_Stewart]

12 hours ago, Jdog said:

^^^is this Bennett's politics alias?

Vicki the Voter

[NotThePars]

Venezuela gave it a go.
Chavez calls for democracy at work
 

Do you think it’s a bad idea?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

The banter will be off the charts if these boys ever get in.

Looking forward to eating the rich tbqh.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

Do you think it’s a bad idea?

 

Not necessarily, I think German firms have had workers' reps at board level for decades. Venezuela is a warning though about what can happen if you idealistically ignore the realities of an integrated global economy.

[Miguel Sanchez]

I'm going to take the flag of Bhutan with me to the next SNP conference and wave it when Sturgeon's giving a speech. Just so the world knows that Scotland is a safe place for the Bhutanese. 

[NotThePars]

Not necessarily, I think German firms have had workers' reps at board level for decades. Venezuela is a warning though about what can happen if you idealistically ignore the realities of an integrated global economy.

Do you think democracy in the workplace caused Venezuela’s issues or something else?

[NotThePars]

I'm going to take the flag of Bhutan with me to the next SNP conference and wave it when Sturgeon's giving a speech. Just so the world knows that Scotland is a safe place for the Bhutanese. 

Is there a problem with people waving Palestine flags at the Labour conference when Israel is allowed to act with impunity because of western acquiescence over the issue?

[Miguel Sanchez]

1 minute ago, NotThePars said:

 

Is there a problem with people waving Palestine flags at the Labour conference when Israel is allowed to act with impunity because of western acquiescence over the issue?

 

Do you not want Bhutanese flags at SNP conferences?

Edited September 27, 2018 by Miguel Sanchez

[yoda]

20 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Not necessarily, I think German firms have had workers' reps at board level for decades. Venezuela is a warning though about what can happen if you idealistically ignore the realities of an integrated global economy.

"workplace democracy" =/= "ignoring the realities of an integrated global economy"