What is the point of Labour ?

[Highlandmagar]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

He's stopped the party from falling apart, which was pretty much his remit. 

I don't think that it's worth holding together though. 

The triangulating third way managerialists should all piss off and form their own party with Keir as the boss and leave the people who backed Corbyn's moderate Social Democrat agenda to have a proper Labour party. 

 

 

What is a ' proper' Labour party'?

[coprolite]

6 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

What is a ' proper' Labour party'?

To my mind:

One that represents the interests of people whose main economic attribute is their endowment of time for working rather than wealth. 

It should have strong links with Unions. 

It should favour equality of opportunity, a good social security safety net and a free NHS. 

It should be prepared to consider public ownership of natural monopolies (usually large infrastructure networks) but not be ideologically tied to public ownership. 

It should be broadly pacifist and internationalist. 

 

It shouldn't do stupid shit like backing austerity and trying to out tory the dark side on immigration, like the blairite goons. 

 

[Highlandmagar]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

To my mind:

One that represents the interests of people whose main economic attribute is their endowment of time for working rather than wealth. 

It should have strong links with Unions. 

It should favour equality of opportunity, a good social security safety net and a free NHS. 

It should be prepared to consider public ownership of natural monopolies (usually large infrastructure networks) but not be ideologically tied to public ownership. 

It should be broadly pacifist and internationalist. 

 

It shouldn't do stupid shit like backing austerity and trying to out tory the dark side on immigration, like the blairite goons. 

 

All good and principled. And I agree broadly with your sentiments. But , unfortunately unelectable in England.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

To my mind:

One that represents the interests of people whose main economic attribute is their endowment of time for working rather than wealth. 

It should have strong links with Unions. 

It should favour equality of opportunity, a good social security safety net and a free NHS. 

It should be prepared to consider public ownership of natural monopolies (usually large infrastructure networks) but not be ideologically tied to public ownership. 

It should be broadly pacifist and internationalist. 

 

It shouldn't do stupid shit like backing austerity and trying to out tory the dark side on immigration, like the blairite goons. 

 

That’s the sort of principles I’d like to see for the governing party in Scotland post Independence.  More realistic than a U.K. Labour Party.

[coprolite]

18 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

All good and principled. And I agree broadly with your sentiments. But , unfortunately unelectable in England.

I can see why people say that but Corbyn got 40% in 2017 despite the best efforts of half the parliamentary party, the press and the broadcast media.  I think that a genuine alternative could mobilise apathetic voters.  We just need a charismatic frontman to sell it. 

 

[Highlandmagar]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I can see why people say that but Corbyn got 40% in 2017 despite the best efforts of half the parliamentary party, the press and the broadcast media.  I think that a genuine alternative could mobilise apathetic voters.  We just need a charismatic frontman to sell it. 

 

And there is the problem. Where are the charismatic figures?

[scottsdad]

13 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I can see why people say that but Corbyn got 40% in 2017 despite the best efforts of half the parliamentary party, the press and the broadcast media.  I think that a genuine alternative could mobilise apathetic voters.  We just need a charismatic frontman to sell it. 

 

2017 was an utter outlier of an election. A year after the Brexit referendum but before the negotiations, it was still the main issue, the Tories changed leader, UKIP vanished overnight, Trump came to power...it was a strange time to call an election. Add to that Theresa May was by a country mile the worst campaigner I have ever seen. 

The right wing press being no chums of Labour leaders is not new, nor was it unique to Jezza. Remember the disgusting stuff they wrote about Ed Miliband's family, and endlessly recycling the picture of him gagging on a sandwich. Starmer's not having it easy at the moment either.  

[coprolite]

23 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

And there is the problem. Where are the charismatic figures?

Currently uninterested in joining the unprincipled identikit Spad party i'd guess. 

[coprolite]

24 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

2017 was an utter outlier of an election. A year after the Brexit referendum but before the negotiations, it was still the main issue, the Tories changed leader, UKIP vanished overnight, Trump came to power...it was a strange time to call an election. Add to that Theresa May was by a country mile the worst campaigner I have ever seen. 

The right wing press being no chums of Labour leaders is not new, nor was it unique to Jezza. Remember the disgusting stuff they wrote about Ed Miliband's family, and endlessly recycling the picture of him gagging on a sandwich. Starmer's not having it easy at the moment either.  

There was also genuine enthusiasm and engagement for slightly left of centre policies. 

 

[Dundee Hibernian]

36 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar Tier 3 said:

And there is the problem. Where are the charismatic figures?

Any charismatic character who doesn't follow the media's agenda would soon be demonised: that is the problem.

[Granny Danger]

35 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

2017 was an utter outlier of an election. A year after the Brexit referendum but before the negotiations, it was still the main issue, the Tories changed leader, UKIP vanished overnight, Trump came to power...it was a strange time to call an election. Add to that Theresa May was by a country mile the worst campaigner I have ever seen. 

The right wing press being no chums of Labour leaders is not new, nor was it unique to Jezza. Remember the disgusting stuff they wrote about Ed Miliband's family, and endlessly recycling the picture of him gagging on a sandwich. Starmer's not having it easy at the moment either.  

That might all be true but doesn’t change the fact that Corbyn engaged with and enthused sections of the electorate that had not been for a long time.

[scottsdad]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

That might all be true but doesn’t change the fact that Corbyn engaged with and enthused sections of the electorate that had not been for a long time.

Here's what I don't get. The media had the knives out for Corbyn in 2017. But people were enthused by his left-wing policies. In 2019 the press still had the knives out for him. He still had left-wing policies. So...what changed? 

My thinking is that 2017 was just an oddity/outlier following the carnage of the referendum and 2019 was back to normal. Happy to be proven wrong though. 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

That’s the sort of principles I’d like to see for the governing party in Scotland post Independence.  More realistic than a U.K. Labour Party.

Shame for you that the Scottish electorate doesn't share those principles. Is it not roughly about 50% of the vote goes towards centre right type parties, don't see why Indy would change that? 

If what you want was a likely outcome surely we would already have a party or parties with such principles winning votes right now. 

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Here's what I don't get. The media had the knives out for Corbyn in 2017. But people were enthused by his left-wing policies. In 2019 the press still had the knives out for him. He still had left-wing policies. So...what changed? 

My thinking is that 2017 was just an oddity/outlier following the carnage of the referendum and 2019 was back to normal. Happy to be proven wrong though. 

He had another 2 years of vilification from outside and inside the party, along with his unconvincing and constantly shifting position on Brexit.

[scottsdad]

Just now, welshbairn said:

He had another 2 years of vilification from outside and inside the party, along with his unconvincing and constantly shifting position on Brexit.

He did himself no favours with that one - though what choice did he really have? Come out as a Remainer, get vilified and accused of being anti-democratic and working against his own beliefs? Come out as a Brexiter and abandon the 48% of the electorate who voted remain? In the end he chose neither which was worse than both other options as it made him seem indecisive. 

I don't think any labour leader would have done well there. 

[williemillersmoustache]

2017 was a catastrophe. Corbyn lost to the worst PM (at the time) who fought the worst campaign in history. And rather than f**k off sheepishly into the sunset having failed to beat May, unbelievably he took this as a sign to keep going. 

[Granny Danger]

21 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

He had another 2 years of vilification from outside and inside the party, along with his unconvincing and constantly shifting position on Brexit.

The attacks from inside was the defining point, the media were able to exploit attacks from unprincipled MPs who had no place in the party let alone in the Commons.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The attacks from inside was the defining point, the media were able to exploit attacks from unprincipled MPs who had no place in the party let alone in the Commons.

The Israeli Embassy did a first rate job too, it was understandable that they'd pull out all the stops to derail someone who's sympathetic to Palestinians becoming PM.

[coprolite]

36 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

2017 was a catastrophe. Corbyn lost to the worst PM (at the time) who fought the worst campaign in history. And rather than f**k off sheepishly into the sunset having failed to beat May, unbelievably he took this as a sign to keep going. 

I'm never quite sure how much of the division was down to the blairites/ change uk lot and how much due to Corbyn being unskilled at the politics bit and alienating people he needed onside. This seemed to get worse after 2017.

He really showed his ineptitude when he launched the free broadband for all policy. Good idea but clumsy and an absolute gift for the tories to paint as a "typical uncosted labour giveaway".

So, yeah, i agree that Corbyn being emboldened by 2017 was a major cause of the collapse in 2019.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It’s a headline from one newspaper, the rest of the print media are taking a slightly-radically different stance.
BTW anyone who reads the Daily Heil already has their mind made up about Starmer and Labour.

Which year is that headline from . . .