Cowden Cowboy Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Even if the SPFL3 isn't fully on board. You've also seen plans by the SPFL to increase their membership by increasing league sizes.And again dead in the water for now 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden Cowboy Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Meanwhile up north The Highland League would then lose its play off place if ICT colts joined - unless SPFL agreed to change their rules 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Just now, Cowden Cowboy said: And again dead in the water for now For now, but it has been an ongoing discussion in various forms for years. It doesn't really matter. You restrict voting rights to just "Tiers 1-5" then the SPFL basically runs the SFA and all of football in the country as they can win every vote by 42-34. So they can do whatever they want. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: For now, but it has been an ongoing discussion in various forms for years. It doesn't really matter. You restrict voting rights to just "Tiers 1-5" then the SPFL basically runs the SFA and all of football in the country as they can win every vote by 42-34. So they can do whatever they want. The SPFL isn't some sort of hivemind, the idea that they'd vote in lockstep for just about any measure is far-fetched. It does seem clear though that SPFL clubs want to retain a *significant* stake in the decision-making process, which having 42/80 votes would guarantee. Achieving some sort of tiered voting structure is surely a better strategy for them in the medium/long term than choosing to die on the hill of 'no more clubs'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 24 minutes ago, virginton said: The SPFL isn't some sort of hivemind, the idea that they'd vote in lockstep for just about any measure is far-fetched. It does seem clear though that SPFL clubs want to retain a *significant* stake in the decision-making process, which having 42/80 votes would guarantee. Achieving some sort of tiered voting structure is surely a better strategy for them in the medium/long term than choosing to die on the hill of 'no more clubs'. They don't really have to be to cover most of what people care about. It can be as simple as Full Members enter the Scottish Cup at the 1st Round proper at least, whereas all associate members and qualifiers start in preliminary rounds. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 I really doubt that most SPFL chairmen give a toss about that tbh, 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) I’ve been busy... Plan.pdf It’s not perfect, it’ll upset some. It seems the best way to FAIRLY allow new teams to enter at tier 8 with no major restriction to entry, to progress to as far as they wish to go. * Jeanfield Swifts, Newburgh, Kinnoull and Tayport can choose between NoS or EoS but once chosen, any changes will result in starting at tier 8. Jeanfield can enter straight into HL Division 1 at the expense of Broughty Athletic (or Lochee if they don’t wish to be at tier 6), basically the highest ranking team who pass tier 6 licensing standards and is willing from that area. Apart from that, it leaves plenty of spaces open all over the country for any new team wishing to have a go at tier 8. Edited May 22, 2019 by Spyro 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, virginton said: I really doubt that most SPFL chairmen give a toss about that tbh, If we're talking about voting rights what else has the most pressing concern other than the evolution of the Scottish Cup and it's formatting due to increased numbers. 50 clubs in 2006-07 (42 SPFL Clubs + 8 Qualifiers) 100 or more in 2019-20 (95 members, 5 Qualifiers so far, plus potential additional members that might get licensed in time) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 That's not a pressing concern; what they are doing is ensuring that when something important does come up that they'll still be in a position to wield a lot of influence rather than a whole stack of non-leaguers calling the shots. The idea that the SPFL as a body are up in arms about preliminary rounds of the Scottish Cup is just as fanciful as your lockstep 42 votes fantasy. The early rounds do not concern the majority of the 42 clubs and the cup isn't even a particularly big money-spinner anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 35 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said: If we're talking about voting rights what else has the most pressing concern other than the evolution of the Scottish Cup and it's formatting due to increased numbers. 50 clubs in 2006-07 (42 SPFL Clubs + 8 Qualifiers) 100 or more in 2019-20 (95 members, 5 Qualifiers so far, plus potential additional members that might get licensed in time) The structure was changed after 2006/07 explicitly to increase the number of entrants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 27 minutes ago, virginton said: That's not a pressing concern; what they are doing is ensuring that when something important does come up that they'll still be in a position to wield a lot of influence rather than a whole stack of non-leaguers calling the shots. The idea that the SPFL as a body are up in arms about preliminary rounds of the Scottish Cup is just as fanciful as your lockstep 42 votes fantasy. The early rounds do not concern the majority of the 42 clubs and the cup isn't even a particularly big money-spinner anyway. Scottish Cup rights were just sold off for 6 years. Think all the qualifiers and Nations League games are sold by UEFA rather than the SFA. Couldn't find the length of any tv deal for our friendlies. Scottish Cup format and distribution of prize money is something that'll require approval by the members far more often than most things. Hence the pressing concern as something that's actually going to have to be voted on. As for the lockstep hivemind fantasy. That's all you. Pointing out that the SPFL can win every vote 42-34 which is actually 42-33 at the minute is just highlighting that if the SPFL majority want something solely for their benefit they can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said: Isn't the LL just League 3 in all but name? Seems to me the worry is that some clubs don't want to fall out of "The league" but tier 5 is tier 5 no matter what it gets called. No the LL isn't the "SPFL League 3 in all but name":- No automatic promotion from Tier 5 to Tier 4 (ie: there are 2 opportunities for promotion between the top 3 SPFL tiers) 'Semi final' play off with the Highland champions, to be overcome first before having a crack at Club 42 Most Tier 5 clubs enter the Scottish Cup one round later than League 2 clubs Less tv/ media attention given to regional non- league clubs, compared with those playing nationally in the SPFL Less funding available to Tier 5 clubs Fewer league games to be played (30 LL -v- 36 minimum for SPFL). **** However, I do agree with your view that there is the fear of losing "national league status" in the SPFL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden Cowboy Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Robert James said: No the LL isn't the "SPFL League 3 in all but name":- No automatic promotion from Tier 5 to Tier 4 (ie: there are 2 opportunities for promotion between the top 3 SPFL tiers) 'Semi final' play off with the Highland champions, to be overcome first before having a crack at Club 42 Most Tier 5 clubs enter the Scottish Cup one round later than League 2 clubs Less tv/ media attention given to regional non- league clubs, compared with those playing nationally in the SPFL Less funding available to Tier 5 clubs Fewer league games to be played (30 LL -v- 36 minimum for SPFL). **** However, I do agree with your view that there is the fear of losing "national league status" in the SPFL. Most Tier 5 clubs enter Scottish Cup later than the L2 clubs?? Why would SPFL teams welcome losing national league status - surely that isn't desirable thus a wholly justified 'fear' Edited May 22, 2019 by Cowden Cowboy Correction 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Wilson Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 5 hours ago, Robert James said: No the LL isn't the "SPFL League 3 in all but name":- No automatic promotion from Tier 5 to Tier 4 (ie: there are 2 opportunities for promotion between the top 3 SPFL tiers) 'Semi final' play off with the Highland champions, to be overcome first before having a crack at Club 42 Most Tier 5 clubs enter the Scottish Cup one round later than League 2 clubs Less tv/ media attention given to regional non- league clubs, compared with those playing nationally in the SPFL Less funding available to Tier 5 clubs Fewer league games to be played (30 LL -v- 36 minimum for SPFL). **** However, I do agree with your view that there is the fear of losing "national league status" in the SPFL. Thanks for that Robert. I had forgotten about some of those details or was simply ignorant of them. I am now better informed! The question seems to be is there appetite for another national league tier? I'm not convinced there is. As everyone knows, the lower down the tiers we go, the less enthusiasm there is for travelling any distance. So regionalization has to start somewhere. As things stand I think the pyramid has got it right - starting regionalisation at tier 5 with the HL / LL split. On the point of national league status, fear of losing it is a good thing. It means this status means a lot to the clubs and hopefully this is an incentive for them to keep moving forward or risk losing it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 10 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said: Most Tier 5 clubs enter Scottish Cup later than the L2 clubs?? Why would SPFL teams welcome losing national league status - surely that isn't desirable thus a wholly justified 'fear' Scottish Cup format 2018/19 (phased entry stages) 3 Junior Super-league Champions & the Junior Cup winners, + the Scottish Amateur Cup Winners + the South & East Shield winners, enter at Preliminary Round 1 stage All SFA Member "pyramid" clubs below Tier 5 + 4 SFA Member clubs with "protected status", enter at the Preliminary Round 2 stage Most (30) Highland & Lowland (tier 5 clubs), enter at the First Round stage All 10 League 2 clubs + the HFL/SLL champions & runners up, enter at the Second Round stage All 10 League 1 clubs + the bottom 6 clubs in the Championship , enter at the Third Round stage All 12 Premiership clubs + top 4 clubs in the Championship, enter at the Fourth Round stage Thereafter it is a straight knock-out tournament (for winning clubs from the Fourth Round onwards), at the Fifth, Sixth, Semi Final & Final stages of the Cup Scottish Cup format 2019/20 (phased entry stages) Given the influx of additional SFA member (licensed) clubs (in April 2019 + an estimated 6* further club licence applications currently pending (for July 2019 ?), some changes in the above format will be required for next season's cup competition. (* excluding 2 Junior applicants, not currently eligible, as not "committed to the pyramid) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 6 hours ago, Cameron Wilson said: Thanks for that Robert. I had forgotten about some of those details or was simply ignorant of them. I am now better informed! The question seems to be is there appetite for another national league tier? I'm not convinced there is. As everyone knows, the lower down the tiers we go, the less enthusiasm there is for travelling any distance. So regionalization has to start somewhere. As things stand I think the pyramid has got it right - starting regionalisation at tier 5 with the HL / LL split. On the point of national league status, fear of losing it is a good thing. It means this status means a lot to the clubs and hopefully this is an incentive for them to keep moving forward or risk losing it. Generally I agree with your views, that travelling time and costs is a major consideration for smaller clubs, either within, or outside the pyramid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 16 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said: Scottish Cup rights were just sold off for 6 years. Scottish Cup format and distribution of prize money is something that'll require approval by the members far more often than most things. Hence the pressing concern as something that's actually going to have to be voted on. And? The Scottish Cup isn't an important cash cow for most SPFL clubs - the League Cup has consistently been a better earner for them. Unless you get a good draw or reach Hampden, the money from the Scottish Cup is not a game-changer for league clubs. The idea that redistributing funds will lead SPFL clubs to circle their wagons is plainly bollocks. There are far more important issues that could be coming down the chute in the near future: such as another attempt to implement Project Brave; as well as a push for strict(er) liability regarding fan behaviour at games. The SFA will play an important role in pushing forward both of those ideas and it's perfectly understandable that SPFL clubs don't want a stack of non-leaguers to make those calls for them when it'd have a far bigger impact within the SPFL than further down the pyramid. Quote As for the lockstep hivemind fantasy. That's all you. Pointing out that the SPFL can win every vote 42-34 which is actually 42-33 at the minute is just highlighting that if the SPFL majority want something solely for their benefit they can. It would require an overwhelming majority of SPFL clubs to ensure that outcome, which is not going to happen because the likes of Albion Rovers and Celtic do not typically share the same interests. So it's totally meaningless in practice then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven W Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 18 hours ago, Spyro said: I’ve been busy... Plan.pdf It’s not perfect, it’ll upset some. It seems the best way to FAIRLY allow new teams to enter at tier 8 with no major restriction to entry, to progress to as far as they wish to go. * Jeanfield Swifts, Newburgh, Kinnoull and Tayport can choose between NoS or EoS but once chosen, any changes will result in starting at tier 8. Jeanfield can enter straight into HL Division 1 at the expense of Broughty Athletic (or Lochee if they don’t wish to be at tier 6), basically the highest ranking team who pass tier 6 licensing standards and is willing from that area. Apart from that, it leaves plenty of spaces open all over the country for any new team wishing to have a go at tier 8. I enjoyed that - good work. Unfrtuantely the realms of fantasy though, due to lack of appetite / desire from some clubs, and an administating body who make an arse of everything. It needs a "dictator" from somewhere to say "This is how it is now. Deal with it" (I think you'd do good job based on your plan) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Steven W said: I enjoyed that - good work. Unfrtuantely the realms of fantasy though, due to lack of appetite / desire from some clubs, and an administating body who make an arse of everything. It needs a "dictator" from somewhere to say "This is how it is now. Deal with it" (I think you'd do good job based on your plan) I would love to hear what the non-believing committee’s had to say. There’s plenty of areas where I had 3-4 options and still kept the structure so I think it would hold up to any challenge if I was given the chance to tailor it. Until last year I could never understand some arguments of why clubs kept holding back, I’m big enough to admit where I’ve been wrong. I just wish some committees could accept the same a open their minds a little 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spyro Posted May 23, 2019 Share Posted May 23, 2019 And nobody has picked up on the fact I’m a Penicuik boy, and gave Lithgae the 18th place in LL. Another thing I normally wouldn’t have done, but after hearing about LR’s early license application and wording on joining the pyramid (before anyone knew what it was!), I feel they deserved the 18th spot ahead of Penicuik/Broxburn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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