Pyramid 2019/2020

[Dev]

8 hours ago, Truthteller said:

 

Article 62-64

Sadly, for some, the SFA isn't above the laws of the land. The SFA's Articles of Association can state anything they wish but if it is shown to be an unreasonable term of a contract then it wouldn't stand up in a Court of Law and is not enforcible - and that is where this could all end up. There again could the SFA afford to fight a Court Case, using up funds which could be funding Members?

The terms of any contract can state anything whatsoever but if they are deemed to be unreasonable, in the first place, according to the law, then they are not valid e.g. it could state that the winner of the Junior Cup is promoted to the Scottish Parliament - which, of course, is complete nonsense, much like the extra-ordinary efforts to cover certain back-sides at the SFA for "not realising" how many Junior clubs wished to join the Pyramid ! 

[Burnie_man]

9 hours ago, Truthteller said:

Article 62-64

Which particular sub section?

Let's just remember that the play-off competition is an agreement between all leagues involved and the SFA,  to find a team to promote to the LL.  That agreement can be altered only with the agreement of all parties.  It's not a "competition" as such, therefore the SFA do not have arbitary powers over it.

In theory I guess, if the SFA scrap it (I doubt they can) and try to enforce their own play-off system, the LL could refuse to have anything to do with it and make arrangements with the EoS for direct promotion/relegation.

I just dont think the SFA will have any desire to seek such confrontation, it never has before.

[Dev]

1 minute ago, Dev said:

Sadly, for some, the SFA isn't above the laws of the land. The SFA's Articles of Association can state anything they wish but if it is shown to be an unreasonable term of a contract then it wouldn't stand up in a Court of Law and is not enforcible - and that is where this could all end up. There again could the SFA afford to fight a Court Case, using up funds which could be funding Members?

The terms of any contract can state anything whatsoever but if they are deemed to be unreasonable, in the first place, according to the law, then they are not valid e.g. it could state that the winner of the Junior Cup is promoted to the Scottish Parliament - which, of course, is complete nonsense, much like the extra-ordinary efforts to cover certain back-sides at the SFA for "not realising" how many Junior clubs wished to join the Pyramid ! 

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

[Burnie_man]

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

The last part is important. As and when the latest licence applications are ratified, you're looking at over 30 full member clubs between LL and EoS, out of what would be a total membership of around 110. That's a big voting bloc to risk upsetting. I also believe the EoS supported Petrie's VP candidacy. What is it that the SJFA have that can damage Petrie and the SFA? Not a lot.

[Robert James]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

Yes

1 hour ago, Dev said:

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

As I pointed out 100+ posts ago, for clubs which applied for a licence "in good faith" before the 1st January 2019, under the pre-2019 licensing laws,  completed their application in accordance with these rules, plus had paid their £2k licensing fee, the new licensing laws (eg re; floodlights), would not apply IMO.  Any attempt to backdate them would be a 'technical breach' of the terms of their pre-2019 application.     (However, these clubs could legitimately have their licence refused, if they did not meet any of the  pre-2019  licensing standards).

Thereafter, the 2019 rules, would be applied on the annual renewal date of their licence, in the same way that the SFA could apply the new 2019 licensing standards to any of the existing SFA licensed clubs, on their next annual  licence renewal date - again in my opinion.  This is where I assume, that an application for derogation could be approved (or rejected) for all of these clubs.

However, clubs which applied for a licence, and paid their fee, after 1/1/19, are subject to the new 2019 licensing rules (laws).  These 'new' applicants could theoretically apply for a derogation, although  I assume the SFA could/would legitimately reject their request.

I sincerely hope the licensing issue is resolved next week when (if ?) clubs are notified about the outcome of their individual applications , negating any need for any of these clubs to take legal action over licensing. 

However, as pointed out by other posters, if the SFA unilaterally enforces pyramid changes, in breach of existing feeder SLFL/EoSL?SoSL constitutions/rules, then there could be a different and separate legal challenge.  This should not be necessary, and can be avoided. The EoSL and the WRJFA meetings next week, give the SFA the chance to resolve this matter. by agreement, with the senior and junior clubs concerned.    

Edited April 20, 2019 by Robert James

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

1 hour ago, Dev said:

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

The last part is important. As and when the latest licence applications are ratified, you're looking at over 30 full member clubs between LL and EoS, out of what would be a total membership of around 110. That's a big voting bloc to risk upsetting. I also believe the EoS supported Petrie's VP candidacy. What is it that the SJFA have that can damage Petrie and the SFA? Not a lot.

Any idea when voting rights kick in?

[Burnie_man]

Any idea when voting rights kick in?

Not sure, doubt it would be this year but people have long memories!

[Wee Smiler]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

This whole Juniors debacle is getting the SFA into disrepute. How long is it before the SFA is challenged in Court - and does it have the funds to fight a case which is unsustainable? How long before an existing Member club, outside the SPFL says enough is enough and organises a raft of new candidates for SFA positions?

very few positions are directly elected by the members only the president and vice president and you have a current president who came from tier 5 not the spfl

[Robert James]

As a different pyramid question......

If Berwick Rangers finish as SPFL Club 42 (as now looks likely), will they be strong enough to defeat either Cove Rangers, or East Kilbride in the play-off final ? The Wee Rangers are currently on a dreadful run of results, including today, and are  5 points behind Albion Rovers,  each with 2 games remaining in Division Two.  Next week's fixture :   Berwick Rangers  v  Albion Rovers is crucial, with Rovers only needing a draw to avoid the relegation play-off.   

Looking at their records, both the Highland and Lowland League champions, look strong :  

                                                                   Cove Rangers    34  30-3-1   93 pts            East Kilbride   28  23-3-2   72 pts

If Berwick (or Albion) fail to win the Club 42  play-off final, it would be the second time (only) that a non league club will be promoted through the Pyramid system ?  Is this a likely outcome ?  

Also, if Cove Rangers win promotion to the SPFL, will this put Dalbeattie Star in a potential relegation position,  to the SoSL ?

 

[LongTimeLurker]

If a newly licensed EoS club gets promoted through the playoff, Dalbeattie would be relegated if Cove win promotion, but could reapply for the Selkirk vacancy. That's the scenario that almost certainly relegates Whitehill Welfare, because odds on Dalbeattie gets voted back in.

[Jack Burton]

If EK or Cove can't beat the current Berwick side then we may as well forget the pyramid. The current Berwick team are the worst side by far to play in the SPFL.

[FairWeatherFan]

The EoS are certainly none the wiser over the licensing situation.

[newcastle broon]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's the scenario that almost certainly relegates Whitehill Welfare, because odds on Dalbeattie gets voted back in.

Whitehill tweets have been bizarre today suggests they're no even fussy. I hope I've read them wrong. 

The cynic in me thinks we are just waiting on Bonnyrigg s lights to confirm licenses to the EOSFL clubs 

[LongTimeLurker]

See what you mean. Interesting retweet by the official twitter account of next season's EoS premier teams with WW listed on it and the cartoon clip is a bit ambiguous but could be interpreted as saying farewell to the LL.

[Red Rose]

It’s an absolute shambles. 

The SFA don’t care about these clubs. A total afterthought. Well run clubs and committees waiting for the thumbs up from a bunch of overpaid bigheads that can’t even arrange a meeting. 

It’s sad that this is the route to progression in Scottish football. 

[Enigma]

Could Dalbeattie chose to be relegated to the West of Scotland Juniors if they are in place for next season?

[newcastle broon]

15 minutes ago, Enigma said:

Could Dalbeattie chose to be relegated to the West of Scotland Juniors if they are in place for next season?

Dalbeattie shouldn't even be contemplating relegation, whole season has become a farce including the licensing situation. 

[Black & Red Socks]

Also the east juniors were promised tier 6 before they all jumped ship.
Most either did not believe it or were sheep that followed the movers.
The dundonald position is extremely fair.
The eos did a fantastic job to be fair.
If no one had jumped last season then I have absolutely no doubt this tier 6 proposal would have sailed through in the face of a weak eos.
 
 

If no one had jumped ship last season then I have absolutely no doubt that the SJFA would have continued their opposition to all things Pyramid. It’s astonishing that an organisation that has shown nothing but contempt for the whole pyramid concept now appears to hold the whip hand over what happens next because TJ and Ian Maxwell enjoy a cup of coffee together in their adjacent Hampden Park offices and the former has convinced the latter that the retention of his salary is more important than the proper development of the ‘non-league’ game.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

Could Dalbeattie chose to be relegated to the West of Scotland Juniors if they are in place for next season?

I was just thinking of this. This is another reason its laughable to have two leagues in the same region.

Say for example Kelty got relegated (unlikely) they could choose the East Juniors, scoosh the league and enjoy the junior Cup then have a better chance of coming up again.

Surely everyone can see this doesn't work long term.

[FairWeatherFan]

31 minutes ago, grinderbrokeyourhearts said:

I was just thinking of this. This is another reason its laughable to have two leagues in the same region.

Say for example Kelty got relegated (unlikely) they could choose the East Juniors, scoosh the league and enjoy the junior Cup then have a better chance of coming up again.

Surely everyone can see this doesn't work long term.

The current way of working for relegation from the Lowland League is that all the leagues involved (LL, EoS & SoS) agree to where clubs would be relegated at the start of the season.

From Section B4 of the Lowland League rules and regulations

Quote

The bottom club will be relegated to the League which will have been decided by the Boards of the three leagues prior to the start of each season.

From Section B4 b) of the Lowland League rules and regulations

Quote

the second bottom club will be relegated to the League which will have been decided by the Boards of the three leagues prior to the start of each season

So it's not down to the clubs alone deciding where they want to go. Which might be one of the reasons the LL object as the likes of Dalbeattie who have a history of playing in the EOS and now the LL would probably want to play in a higher standard of league than the SoS.