superbigal Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 No objections raised in either of the pwg minutes by the LL or the SOS to anything ever discussed is a sort of notable ommision.The eos does appear a little isolated and their 2 reps inconsistent points does not help their case.Hence why I fully understand the confidence felt in the junior camp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Further to the discipline harmonisation. In the November minutes there is a beauty of a paragraph. Here it is word for word. Tj confirmed that he had already looked through the disciplinary comparison document and had no problem with implementing changes within the sjfa to bring its disciplinary systems into line with the Scottish fas disciplinary systems. He felt it would benefit the clubs to make these changes and that sjfa clubs would comply with any changes the sjfa made in this respect.Ian Maxwell asked tj and Iain McQueen if they would still impose fines on players as well as suspension. Tj stated they would still impose fines because it does not impact on the player suspensions.Andrew Renwick suggested that discipline for all leagues should be the same and, due to this , felt that fines for sjfa players should no longer apply. Tj and AMcQ explained that fines are used to generate income for the sjfa and its regions. Tj advised that the sjfa administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volunteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes. Laura Dougan confirmed that the sfa would not deal with the discipline for the sjfa leagues. Only when said clubs compete in the lower pyramid play off matches. This rambles on for a while.What I take from this is that Andrew Renwick (the old fogey imo) definitely has a bee in his bonnet with Tom Johnston. It comes across so often. The juniors most certainly collect fines to accommodate the blazers etc. Sfa will let this continue due to no resource to take on the juniors in any shape or form.This is confirmed in the January minutes when the eos reps both declare their disappointment that the sjfa will do its own discipline. November minutes then move onto new rules that need to be established for the new lower pyramid playoff. George Fraser of the LL is tasked with creating said new rules and putting out a proposal to all. Those rules must have been proposed between meetings as everyone apparently agrees to them in the January minutes.Further to November minutes discussion regarding club licencing for sjfa clubs, as only clubs with a license and full sfa membership are eligible for the lower pyramid playoff. Tj said that requirement may focus the attention of some sjfa clubs however he stated some would never be interested in promotion. A club may never be in a position to gain a club license. Then a suitable calender for fixture scheduling should be sorted by all concerned meeting.Tj confirmed that the sjfa finishes third Saturday in June. However he advices the sjfa will be culling competitions and bringing the the end of the league season forward. This process has started. Local cup competitions are to be trimmed. I think Andrew Renwick is absolutely spot on, there should be absolutely no differences in discipline procedures. If you see the eye watering sums paid out to Junior office bearers you begin to understand why they want to protect income.As for Laura Dougan, if this is a source of complaint from the other leagues then go and find resource, ask your CEO for resource. The SFA are the governing body and cant just pass off this issue to another body.Finally, TJ cant promise any rules changes will be accepted by his member clubs. He is just a paid employee of the clubs. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbigal Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Burnie I totally agree with you. The sfa and no resource helps the sjfa keep its own model. Just another pointscore for tj. However as I say the LL or the SOS do not back up the EOS on this or indeed anything. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Burnie I totally agree with you. The sfa and no resource helps the sjfa keep its own model. Just another pointscore for tj. However as I say the LL or the SOS do not back up the EOS on this or indeed anything.The LL are rarely quoted although they fully back the EoS on the point that agreement is needed to change the play-off regulations.Remember, there is a lot more said at these meetings that isn't noted in minutes. I'm sure you have been in meetings when discussions take place "off the record" and un-minuted.I wonder who takes them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 27 minutes ago, superbigal said: November minutes then move onto new rules that need to be established for the new lower pyramid playoff. George Fraser of the LL is tasked with creating said new rules and putting out a proposal to all. Those rules must have been proposed between meetings as everyone apparently agrees to them in the January minutes. They weren't agreed to in January. Iain Maxwell tries to get everyone to agree to something and push it through saying those represented were enough, but EoS say they have to run it by their board Quote IM asked GF to confirm the position with the draft Play Off Rules. GF stated that he would have to get a formal proposal from the working group to proceed. He confirmed that the Play Off Rules need agreement from the East, South, SLFL and the Scottish FA. RO mentioned that this had not been the case in the past. GF confirmed that all parties must agree to the Play Off Rules. IM stated that if there was an agreement at this working group, then that would be all parties in agreement. JG stated that could not be the case as he would have to run the information past the EOS FA Board first. It also didn't sound like a proposal was brought up as Iain Maxwell later takes it upon himself Quote IM agreed that he would produce a proposal, along with LD, to allow the SLFL to progress the Play Off Rules, as required by GF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, superbigal said: Remember it is 99.9% established this is purely a lower (lowland) sub pyramid working group. It is clearly not to discuss topics like that. I forgot that one! What about promotion / relegation places? Is the lower pyramid play off matches likely to be competing for one single place ? Or is it a matter that the SFA will leave to the LL to decide at their AGM? Personally I would have thought that the number of places that should be on offer is a pretty big issue as it will dictate the success of the pyramid. Will the SFA be impotent on the issue? Will the SJFA wish to keep the number as small as possible to ensure that they do not "leach" member clubs? Edited February 17, 2019 by Pyramidic 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbigal Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I forgot that one! What about promotion / relegation places? Is the lower pyramid play off matches likely to be competing for one single place ? Or is it a matter that the SFA will leave to the LL to decide at their AGM?Again not for this apparent group. My take is the LL have no allegiance and will facilitate whatever is requested. This is a pure Eos v Sjfa battle.Sfa apparently in the sjfa camp while the current rulebook or constitution appears to be in the Eos camp.I hasten to add the eos in these minutes have never argued on the basis of something actually breaks the rules. As Burnie says minutes are just minutes.But what I present is better than what was out there before. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Again not for this apparent group. My take is the LL have no allegiance and will facilitate whatever is requested. This is a pure Eos v Sjfa battle.Sfa apparently in the sjfa camp while the current rulebook or constitution appears to be in the Eos camp.I hasten to add the eos in these minutes have never argued on the basis of something actually breaks the rules. As Burnie says minutes are just minutes.But what I present is better than what was out there before.It's good to get an idea of where things are. I think the LL have more sympathy for the EoS position than those minutes may suggest.Either way, ask yourself whether you think this is a done deal and the Juniors are in next season....If you're a Junior club who want access to the Pyramid and licencing next season, start looking at a plan B. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 16 minutes ago, superbigal said: Again not for this apparent group. My take is the LL have no allegiance and will facilitate whatever is requested. This is a pure Eos v Sjfa battle. Sfa apparently in the sjfa camp while the current rulebook or constitution appears to be in the Eos camp. I hasten to add the eos in these minutes have never argued on the basis of something actually breaks the rules. As Burnie says minutes are just minutes. But what I present is better than what was out there before. I'd say the Lowland League may have a side. If they were tasked with coming up with the playoff rules in November and turn up in January no further forward. And now they are advertising for applications only from South of the Tay bridge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyramidic Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: It's good to get an idea of where things are. I think the LL have more sympathy for the EoS position than those minutes may suggest. Either way, ask yourself whether you think this is a done deal and the Juniors are in next season.... If you're a Junior club who want access to the Pyramid and licencing next season, start looking at a plan B. I suppose the issue will come to head if the SFA attempt to force Junior access to the Pyramid next season in contradiction of current rules and statutes. I think that it would be much better if IM takes the alternative route and sits down with TJ and explains that for the benefit of Scottish Non League football, clubs within West Lothian and Fife (with the exception of Tayport) fall within the footprint of the EoSL and are encouraged to transfer over leaving the formation of a new Tayside Junior League for the remaining clubs. This is where the SFA should be forcing the issue and as far as I am aware such action would complement rather than contradict current pyramid arrangements. Junior clubs in west Lothian and Fife not wishing to transfer can form their competition outwith the Pyramid. However such an initiative would require real leadership and the question is whether the new CE would have the stomach to follow it through. Edited February 17, 2019 by Pyramidic 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Has there been any discussion on what happens if a west club (ie EK / BSC / Edusport) is relegated. Are the West Juniors going to accept them in there top tier (i remember this being a sticking point before), and will the clubs be happy for the players now to be fined for disciplinay matters? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter's Nutmeg Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I was in the big smoke yesterday, as the other half was visiting her brother. I decided to head along to the Bankies game up at Maryhill. Speaking to a couple of locals I got the impression that they would be happier to enter int the EoS next season? Is this a majority feeling @Kilbowie Benches? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I was in the big smoke yesterday, as the other half was visiting her brother. I decided to head along to the Bankies game up at Maryhill. Speaking to a couple of locals I got the impression that they would be happier to enter int the EoS next season? Is this a majority feeling [mention=73551]Kilbowie Benches[/mention]?A good few of us will be but its already been decided the club are staying in the west, the board doesnt think it could put out a competitive team due to the extra travel. They seem pretty satisfied that the WRSJFA have entry at level 6 and are sticking with it apparently. If thats the case then fair enough, but would now like to see financial fair play and fit and proper persons tests coming into junior football. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter's Nutmeg Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: A good few of us will be but its already been decided the club are staying in the west, the board doesnt think it could put out a competitive team due to the extra travel. They seem pretty satisfied that the WRSJFA have entry at level 6 and are sticking with it apparently. If thats the case then fair enough, but would now like to see financial fair play and fit and proper persons tests coming into junior football. Seems like the board’s eggs are in one basket now? I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence, it would give a lot more credibility to the grade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 A good few of us will be but its already been decided the club are staying in the west, the board doesnt think it could put out a competitive team due to the extra travel. They seem pretty satisfied that the WRSJFA have entry at level 6 and are sticking with it apparently. If thats the case then fair enough, but would now like to see financial fair play and fit and proper persons tests coming into junior football. What happened to an EGM being required to over turn last seasons vote? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 What happened to an EGM being required to over turn last seasons vote?They dont see the need. Regardless its not worth bothering about anymore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 They dont see the need. Regardless its not worth bothering about anymore.Surely they have to follow procedure regardless, assuming the egm decided specifically that you should go to EoS this season? It cant just be ignored.Have they advised the EoS? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 The latest shenanigans may seem on the surface like good old-fashioned dirty politics in smoke-filled rooms, with Maxwell and Johnston outmaneuvering the EoS guys (who do indeed seem somewhat dozy); but IMO it's worse than that - an SFA employee is quite clearly working in cahoots with a man representing non-members of the SFA with the sole aim of defecating on SFA members. I'd like to know why (though quite frankly, I'm already speculating). 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert James Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Pyramidic said: I suppose the issue will come to head if the SFA attempt to force Junior access to the Pyramid next season in contradiction of current rules and statutes. I think that it would be much better if IM takes the alternative route and sits down with TJ and explains that for the benefit of Scottish Non League football, clubs within West Lothian and Fife (with the exception of Tayport) fall within the footprint of the EoSL and are encouraged to transfer over leaving the formation of a new Tayside Junior League for the remaining clubs. This is where the SFA should be forcing the issue and as far as I am aware such action would complement rather than contradict current pyramid arrangements. Junior clubs in west Lothian and Fife not wishing to transfer can form their competition outwith the Pyramid. However such an initiative would require real leadership and the question is whether the new CE would have the stomach to follow it through. Yes I agree that IM would be wise to follow the route you suggest. If he acts beyond his powers as CE, he will carry the can if (when ?) the new arrangements result in litigation. 1 hour ago, honestly united said: Has there been any discussion on what happens if a west club (ie EK / BSC / Edusport) is relegated. Are the West Juniors going to accept them in there top tier (i remember this being a sticking point before), and will the clubs be happy for the players now to be fined for disciplinay matters? Determining the future relegation rights of a current west Lowland League club if it is relegated, is fundamental to the operation of the pyramid. For example, Edusport are the most vulnerable west club, based on current league standings. Has the SJFA/WRJFA formally/informally agreed to accept Edusport, BSC, EKFC, or ANOther west club, into Tier 6, if they are relegated from the LL in the near future ? This would have an immediate 'knock-on' effect. if no West club is promoted to the LL at the same time (ie west champions not licensed, or it doesn't win the 4-way play-off), as it creates a 17th West region club. Or alternatively, it would necessary to relegate an extra West Superleague club to tier 7 at the end of the season. And of course, what happens if existing SFA member club Glasgow University apply to join the West juniors, at Tier 6 for next season ? Unlikely, but possible if its SFA membership is threatened, and it doesn't get the award of a derogation ? These, and other similar situations, must be resolved. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inanimate Carbon Rod Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Surely they have to follow procedure regardless, assuming the egm decided specifically that you should go to EoS this season? It cant just be ignored.Have they advised the EoS?They dont seem to have actually applied to the eosl anyway... Anyway its done now so no point bothering about it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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