Pyramid 2019/2020

[TheLad]

All I'm saying is Burnie having read everything, I would not be overly surprised if Maxwell plays loan wolf and steamrolls through what you genuinely believe the rules cannot allow.
 
 

I think this is exactly what will be happening, if there continues to be a standoff.
I think that, while they will have no requirement to, EOSFL and Lowland League should get proactive to look at solutions that will least negatively impact them.
There is no way that a pyramid will be allowed to operate in future where the access points to spfl are a HL and LL with geographical lines that do not allow access for some teams.
SFA will Make someone change their boundary lines.

[John S]

If separate associations cannot agree then you would think at some point SFA will have to make the decisions.

[Burnie_man]

3 minutes ago, John S said:

If separate associations cannot agree then you would think at some point SFA will have to make the decisions.

It's probably time for Maxwell and the SFA to listen to and understand the concerns from their members leagues, rather than allowing the SJFA to have their cake and eat it.

[craigkillie]

31 minutes ago, TheLad said:

I think this is exactly what will be happening, if there continues to be a standoff.
I think that, while they will have no requirement to, EOSFL and Lowland League should get proactive to look at solutions that will least negatively impact them.
There is no way that a pyramid will be allowed to operate in future where the access points to spfl are a HL and LL with geographical lines that do not allow access for some teams.
SFA will Make someone change their boundary lines.

The Highland League is for all clubs north of the dividing line and the Lowland League is for all clubs south of the dividing line. Which clubs are not being allowed access based on these geographical lines?

[TheLad]

It's probably time for Maxwell and the SFA to listen to and understand the concerns from their members leagues, rather than allowing the SJFA to have their cake and eat it.

You are assuming the SFA and Maxwell want to hear about concerns from member leagues. Judging by the minutes, they don't.
The want to hear about solutions. And member leagues shouldn't be waiting to be asked.

If I'm at work and someone comes to me with moans and concerns that I'm not that interested in, I might be inclined to think they are just a pain in the arse and putting up barriers.

If they come to me with concerns and solutions, I know they are keen to find improvements and might be more inclined to listen.

Now, if the SJFA are offering proposals and have made their case, that becomes the starting point. It becomes easier for the SFA to side with them, even just out of convenience and a lack of caring that much.

The other member leagues need to offer sound alternatives which aren't just 'we don't want that'

[TheLad]

The Highland League is for all clubs north of the dividing line and the Lowland League is for all clubs south of the dividing line. Which clubs are not being allowed access based on these geographical lines?

If the HL is a closed shop and Tayside clubs have no desire to go there either , I would say that isn't a workable option

[never been to scotland]

The solution for the EOS is that the junior clubs within their footprint join their leagues. The boundary line is not a problem they have caused.

[Burnie_man]

You are assuming the SFA and Maxwell want to hear about concerns from member leagues. Judging by the minutes, they don't.
The want to hear about solutions. And member leagues shouldn't be waiting to be asked.

If I'm at work and someone comes to me with moans and concerns that I'm not that interested in, I might be inclined to think they are just a pain in the arse and putting up barriers.

If they come to me with concerns and solutions, I know they are keen to find improvements and might be more inclined to listen.

Now, if the SJFA are offering proposals and have made their case, that becomes the starting point. It becomes easier for the SFA to side with them, even just out of convenience and a lack of caring that much.

The other member leagues need to offer sound alternatives which aren't just 'we don't want that'

As far as the EoS are concerned, they don't need to come up with solutions. They are the senior league in the east of Scotland. Their stance is join the EoS if you want access to the pyramid. Seems a fair solution.

If another league in that same area want to get in on the action, they need to come up with a plan that would be agreeable to the league that already covers their area and convince them why they should agree. That hasn't happened.

If you want to use the work analogy, I'm sure you don't employ someone where there is no vacancy, unless they come to you with a very convincing reason why you need them.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, TheLad said:

21 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The Highland League is for all clubs north of the dividing line and the Lowland League is for all clubs south of the dividing line. Which clubs are not being allowed access based on these geographical lines?

If the HL is a closed shop and Tayside clubs have no desire to go there either , I would say that isn't a workable option

The Highland League isn't a closed shop. They're open to applications and there's a plan in place to split into divisions if they exceed a membership of 20 clubs. The way the last expansion was described was that Formartine United applied to become the 16th team, when that was known publicly the other applications followed. Much like East Kilbride FC being accepted by the SoS, Clydebank being accepted by the EoS. If you don't ask you don't get.

The North Region accepted Montrose Roselea and the Tayside clubs have a cup competition with North Region clubs as well. There's closer ties between the two than people care to admit.

[Burnie_man]

The solution for the EOS is that the junior clubs within their footprint join their leagues. The boundary line is not a problem they have caused.

Correct, and they have until 31st March to apply to join.

[TheLad]

As far as the EoS are concerned, they don't need to come up with solutions. They are the senior league in the east of Scotland. Their stance is join the EoS if you want access to the pyramid. Seems a fair solution.

If another league in that same area want to get in on the action, they need to come up with a plan that would be agreeable to the league that already covers their area and convince them why they should agree. That hasn't happened.

If you want to use the work analogy, I'm sure you don't employ someone where there is no vacancy, unless they come to you with a very convincing reason why you need them.

I know that is EOS position, but it might be one that is not that well thought of at the SFA, perhaps seen as negative, defensive and putting up obstacles.

The option of EOSFL and ERSJFA side by side is viable and could happen. I don't think it's a good idea and I don't want to see it happen. But it could.

I just think that EOS maybe need to be willing to discuss alternatives to 'join us as we are the only gig in town'

[Burnie_man]

I know that is EOS position, but it might be one that is not that well thought of at the SFA, perhaps seen as negative, defensive and putting up obstacles.

The option of EOSFL and ERSJFA side by side is viable and could happen. I don't think it's a good idea and I don't want to see it happen. But it could.

I just think that EOS maybe need to be willing to discuss alternatives to 'join us as we are the only gig in town'

To repeat, it's not upto the EoS to suggest solutions, and remember there is no plan on the table yet to discuss solutions. Join the EoS if you want access to the pyramid and licencing, that should be common sense. They didn't ask the SJFA to muscle in on their territory.

What may be the more helpful move is for the SFA to start acting as an arbiter, and not as a facilitator for the SJFA.

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, TheLad said:

I know that is EOS position, but it might be one that is not that well thought of at the SFA, perhaps seen as negative, defensive and putting up obstacles.

The option of EOSFL and ERSJFA side by side is viable and could happen. I don't think it's a good idea and I don't want to see it happen. But it could.

I just think that EOS maybe need to be willing to discuss alternatives to 'join us as we are the only gig in town'

The SFA posted the Lowland League membership advert a week before the Lowland League posted it. In that advert the North/South of Tay boundary is clearly mentioned and the Lowland League obviously had to run it by the SFA prior to it being made public. I think they'd more likely side with existing members than those wanting in.

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/lowland-league-membership-application-update/?rid=13929

[Marten]

19 minutes ago, TheLad said:

I know that is EOS position, but it might be one that is not that well thought of at the SFA, perhaps seen as negative, defensive and putting up obstacles.

The option of EOSFL and ERSJFA side by side is viable and could happen. I don't think it's a good idea and I don't want to see it happen. But it could.

I just think that EOS maybe need to be willing to discuss alternatives to 'join us as we are the only gig in town'

The only way how I could see both the EOSFL & ERJFA in the pyramid is if you use the "English" approach. This means that they are accepted under the condition that both will cover their own area (probably after a transition period) with the SFA deciding which teams go in where. If the boundary gets changed to include the Tayside teams, that could mean that for example the ERJFA covers Tayside, Perthshire, Fife & EOSFL covers the Lothians, Borders, Edinburgh etc. This would mean the likes of Jeanfield will be forced into the ERJFA, while Fauldhouse will be forced into the EOSFL. A similar thing can be done in the west, meaning Bonnyton going into the WRJFA for example. The boundaries between the leagues can then be flexible, so if say Whitehill Welfare & Civil Service Strollers get relegated with one of ERJFA & EOSFL areas being promoted into the LL, both WW & CSS will go into the EOSFL with one EOSFL team being moved across to the ERJFA to even out the numbers.

Although 4 leagues feeding in 1 would be undesirable IMO, so then these 4 leagues should sit at tier 7, feeding in a LL2 East & West.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Marten

[superbigal]

Did you play HL then or do you mean on tour with Tayport?

Why can I never pick up "All quotes" infuriating.
Anyway played highland league but also went on a couple of tayport preseason tours to help them out (with the drinking) [emoji6]

[Blowin In the Wind]

15 hours ago, G4Mac said:

In keeping with the spirit of devil's advocate..... 

Would any of the clubs currently plying their trade in the eosfl (now the better standard of league out of the eosfl and ersjfa) move back to play against what is left? 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that although I don't think it should happen, if the ersjfa do get in at tier 6, would it be that bad for business? I can't see many clubs applying to go back the way, and if they did, would they be accepted? 

Had a look at the current East Junior Superleague make up and there is no way a WL Team would want part of it. Apart from Fauldhouse and Whitburn  the nearest trip is Thornton which is about 45 minutes each way plus 6 clubs are north of the Tay.  None of the Tayside clubs have a big support so it must be costing the 2 WL Teams a fortune to run. Don’t think Pumpherston Juniors will be looking forward to that next season.

In Broxburns conference there are only 2 trips of any distance  St Andrews and Jeanfield, plus there are 6 fairly local games and one large supported club.

[Pyramidic]

46 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The SFA posted the Lowland League membership advert a week before the Lowland League posted it. In that advert the North/South of Tay boundary is clearly mentioned and the Lowland League obviously had to run it by the SFA prior to it being made public. I think they'd more likely side with existing members than those wanting in.

 

I wish this was case.  However how close is Tom Johnston's office to Ian Maxwell's office?  I am fearful we may be seeing a case of respective interests of the two national organisations being aligned while those of the EoSFL/EoSFA becomes increasingly side-lined. None of us will ever have any clue of what has been agreed at informal meetings between the SFA and SJFA at executive level.

The SFA Pyramid is a big issue for Ian Maxwell under his stewardship of the SFA.  I would suspect that he just wants Juniors and Seniors under "one Pyramid umbrella" for 2019/20 and will then wait and see how things pan out in the future and will address "the most demanding problems" as they arise.  I suspect in the context of promotion to the Lowland league that the SFA will consider a "four way play-off" to be neat and tidy and will be a feather in Maxwell's cap that under his watch he has achieved a sort of unity at non-league level.

It takes time to achieve uniformity at non-league level and the English are still tinkering with their approach years after their pyramid was first set up.

Edited February 17, 2019 by Pyramidic

[superbigal]

Further to the discipline harmonisation. In the November minutes there is a beauty of a paragraph. Here it is word for word.

 

Tj confirmed that he had already looked through the disciplinary comparison document and had no problem with implementing changes within the sjfa to bring its disciplinary systems into line with the Scottish fas disciplinary systems. He felt it would benefit the clubs to make these changes and that sjfa clubs would comply with any changes the sjfa made in this respect.

Ian Maxwell asked tj and Iain McQueen if they would still impose fines on players as well as suspension. Tj stated they would still impose fines because it does not impact on the player suspensions.

Andrew Renwick suggested that discipline for all leagues should be the same and, due to this , felt that fines for sjfa players should no longer apply. Tj and AMcQ explained that fines are used to generate income for the sjfa and its regions. Tj advised that the sjfa administers its own player discipline and suspensions, mainly through volunteers, and the money generated by disciplinary fines was an essential part of these processes.

Laura Dougan confirmed that the sfa would not deal with the discipline for the sjfa leagues. Only when said clubs compete in the lower pyramid play off matches.

 

This rambles on for a while.

What I take from this is that Andrew Renwick (the old fogey imo) definitely has a bee in his bonnet with Tom Johnston. It comes across so often.

The juniors most certainly collect fines to accommodate the blazers etc.

Sfa will let this continue due to no resource to take on the juniors in any shape or form.

This is confirmed in the January minutes when the eos reps both declare their disappointment that the sjfa will do its own discipline.

 

November minutes then move onto new rules that need to be established for the new lower pyramid playoff.

George Fraser of the LL is tasked with creating said new rules and putting out a proposal to all.

Those rules must have been proposed between meetings as everyone apparently agrees to them in the January minutes.

Further to November minutes discussion regarding club licencing for sjfa clubs, as only clubs with a license and full sfa membership are eligible for the lower pyramid playoff. Tj said that requirement may focus the attention of some sjfa clubs however he stated some would never be interested in promotion. A club may never be in a position to gain a club license.

 

Then a suitable calender for fixture scheduling should be sorted by all concerned meeting.

Tj confirmed that the sjfa finishes third Saturday in June. However he advices the sjfa will be culling competitions and bringing the the end of the league season forward. This process has started. Local cup competitions are to be trimmed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Pyramidic]

Has the re-constituting of the Junior Cup come up at all in the discussions Superbigal and the "carrot" of entry for Senior Clubs been offered?

[superbigal]

Remember it is 99.9% established this is purely a lower (lowland) sub pyramid working group. It is clearly not to discuss topics like that.