Pyramid 2019/2020

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

No club or association in membership of the SFA can take legal action against it.

Not true. Unilateral/ad hoc  ("ultra vires") decisions taken by 'sub groups', and/or the CE, which contravene existing constitutions/rules, resulting in a directly adverse effect on clubs/leagues, can result in legal action.  If you don't agree with my view, may I suggest that you have a 'chat' with an appropriate solicitor.

For example, your club Clydebank could have taken such action  a year ago, had allegations/rumours been followed through into action by the SJFA.  Fortunately this wasn't necessary.

[The Mantis]

42 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I don’t know how much the (joint) Secty of the EoS and LL is paid, from what I’m told it is negligible, and probably the same for the fixtures guru who also compiles them for both leagues. They don't need full-time staff nor Hampden offices and they are run much better than the Juniors.

Last I heard, LL officials get offered an ‘honorarium ‘ of around £100, which most/all of them refuse.

Edited February 18, 2019 by The Mantis

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, The Mantis said:

Last I heard, LL officials get offered an ‘honorarium ‘ of around £100, which most of them refuse.

Blimey, incomparable to what Junior officials are paid.

[Cameron Wilson]

5 minutes ago, Robert James said:

An excellent post : perhaps you should send a copy to IM & Co ?

Regarding the NCL, it has been stated on P & B that at a meeting held last June, the clubs expressed an interest in joining the pyramid. If correct, the SFA needs to progress this in tandem with the North Juniors, as these two Associations represent distinctly different Scottish geographical areas. Also :

(1) the NCL is a "senior" league, which  is  broadly equivalent to the SoSL in terms of playing standards, and (in many cases) supporter levels 

(2) the NCL clubs should not be prevented from being afforded pyramid 'feeder' status, even if at present, only one of its clubs (Golspie) holds an SFA licence

(3) if the HFL embraces pyramid relegation in the future, clubs like Wick Academy, Brora Rangers, Fort William, and (probably) Clachnacuddin, would be unlikely to join a North/Tayside 'feeder' league, and would look to join the NCL (as FW would have done for this season, if they hadn't formed a new management committee)  

(4) some NCL clubs are known to be ambitious, and 2 clubs currently participate in the Highland Youth League. If there is to be a HFL pyramid, which includes the North Juniors, the NCL should also have a similar status for the reasons stated above.

Also, highland whisky is better in the north, especially on a cold winter's night.

 

Actually Robert the more time I spend reading the various P&B pyramid-related threads the more it seems to me that there are at least some people on the inside paying attention to the debate here. Off the top of my head the Fauldhouse manager is a regular poster, Dundonald's general manager also is, and there's various other individuals who are either past or present committee members. I think someone mentioned just the other day that someone in an official capacity at CS Strollers is a P&B member as well. There's likely to be others we don't know about either posting under pseudonyms or lurking silently. 

All the more reason for everyone to keep the discussion here on point and to avoid the daft personal attacks which have flown about lately, I'm sure you'll agree.

For the NCL, they've been largely absent from the debate which is understandable to a point, but they need to be included for the reasons you mention. I think one of the main sticking points in the north is that some teams are just not going to want to progress up the pyramid beyond regional level as they are simply never going to have the resources to travel too far south. This applies to clubs everywhere in the lower levels, but is especially relevant to the NCL due to its relative geographical isolation. To this end at the very bottom levels of the pyramid there is a good argument for allowing clubs to pass up promotion.

A swift dram in a local tavern is of course an absolute must for any trip to the highlands.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Actually Robert the more time I spend reading the various P&B pyramid-related threads the more it seems to me that there are at least some people on the inside paying attention to the debate here. Off the top of my head the Fauldhouse manager is a regular poster, Dundonald's general manager also is, and there's various other individuals who are either past or present committee members. I think someone mentioned just the other day that someone in an official capacity at CS Strollers is a P&B member as well. There's likely to be others we don't know about either posting under pseudonyms or lurking silently. 

All the more reason for everyone to keep the discussion here on point and to avoid the daft personal attacks which have flown about lately, I'm sure you'll agree.

Think that's true, or at the very least a ripple effect. Weeks ago everyone was talking about the playoff rules between lowland, EoS & SoS. Then the Lowland decides to post them on their website for the first time.

[Burnie_man]

37 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

Surely the staff shortage could be covered by the sjfa merging into the SFA & the employees of the sjfa transfer to becoming sfa employees.

TJ is the only full-time employee. I don't see him being a tea boy for the SFA 

[Robert James]

1 minute ago, Cameron Wilson said:

Actually Robert the more time I spend reading the various P&B pyramid-related threads the more it seems to me that there are at least some people on the inside paying attention to the debate here. Off the top of my head the Fauldhouse manager is a regular poster, Dundonald's general manager also is, and there's various other individuals who are either past or present committee members. I think someone mentioned just the other day that someone in an official capacity at CS Strollers is a P&B member as well. There's likely to be others we don't know about either posting under pseudonyms or lurking silently. 

All the more reason for everyone to keep the discussion here on point and to avoid the daft personal attacks which have flown about lately, I'm sure you'll agree.

For the NCL, they've been largely absent from the debate which is understandable to a point, but they need to be included for the reasons you mention. I think one of the main sticking points in the north is that some teams are just not going to want to progress up the pyramid beyond regional level as they are simply never going to have the resources to travel too far south. This applies to clubs everywhere in the lower levels, but is especially relevant to the NCL due to its relative geographical isolation. To this end at the very bottom levels of the pyramid there is a good argument for allowing clubs to pass up promotion.

A swift dram in a local tavern is of course an absolute must for any trip to the highlands.

Excellent stuff (either your post, or the whisky, or both).

I agree entirely that "daft personal attacks", are pointless, and frankly boring. Hence I stopped 'contributing' to P&B for several months. I hope that you are right that some key people are paying attention to the debate here, as there are some excellent posts which increase awareness of the main issues, and arguments (including mine).

Regarding the NCL and smaller SJFA clubs, the licensing rules, affords 'protection' against clubs being promoted to Tier 5 against their will, whilst allowing them to be members of the pyramid at the lower levels. This gives smaller clubs, which don't want promotion, the choice via compliance/non compliance with the new licensing rules (subject to any derogation awarded, if any ?).  The new SFA  floodlight rules are to be welcomed in my opinion, especially as I expect the Lowland League to (quickly) come into line with the Highland rule, that all member clubs must have lights. 

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

That is exactly what it is, levying fines in order to pay salaries and expenses. They admit it in the minutes.

The Secretary of the ERJFA is paid well into four figures for his services, at least it was when I sat at these meeting and voted on their pay increases (£6k+ from memory) and I believe that WRJFA position is paid even more. The Secretary of the SJFA is well over £30k.  Then there is the “honorary” payments to the other blazers.  The SJFA have (or had) well over £400k in the bank, they also have an office at Hampden to pay for.

I don’t know how much the (joint) Secty of the EoS and LL is paid, from what I’m told it is negligible, and probably the same for the fixtures guru who also compiles them for both leagues. They don't need full-time staff nor Hampden offices and they are run much better than the Juniors.

There is no equality in the discipline system as long as it is in the best interests of the Junior organisations to levy their own fines against players.  Involving the SJFA in the Pyramid is a farce, even more so by allowing them to keep their own rules, yet the SFA/IM seem keen to facilitate this.

So, if I understand it correctly,  for identical offences

- a Rangers or Celtic player who earns tens of thousands a week, pays nothing

- a junior player, who earns next to nothing, is fined

and this is justified to pay the wages of the officials.

Bloody revolutions have started for less.

[Kilbowie Benches]

29 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

So, if I understand it correctly,  for identical offences

- a Rangers or Celtic player who earns tens of thousands a week, pays nothing

- a junior player, who earns next to nothing, is fined

and this is justified to pay the wages of the officials.

Bloody revolutions have started for less.

If members of the SJFA want to change it then they can raise it at the AGM.

Theres a lot of clutching at straws going on now that the full story is out there for all to see.

[Burnie_man]

If members of the SJFA want to change it then they can raise it at the AGM.
Theres a lot of clutching at straws going on now that the full story is out there for all to see.

No straw clutching, I think what is abundantly clear to everyone now the "full story" is a little clearer is there is no agreement as yet for any of the Junior leagues to enter the Pyramid, so much so TJ wants the SFA Board to do something.

The objections to disciplinary procedures not aligning and the ERJFA being the main sticking points. Still no plan on the table yet either for the play-offs.

Then there is the issue of the NRJFA apparently not being interested, leaving the SJFA being unable to agree to anything as they dont have a mandate to split up the regions.

Juniors in the Pyramid next season? I'd be taking a look at a plan B if I were a Junior club wanting access next season.

[honestly united]

Another question I had just thought of is currently there is the Alex Jack cup played for by non-licencsed clubs in the south for a chance to get in the Scottish Cup. Is this going to be opened up to Junior clubs to give them a shot at the Scottish Cup? You could argue the Junior scottish cup is similar, but you have licenced clubs taking part in that who already get access.

 

Also not sure if there are any junior players reading, but what is there take on the fact that from next season you could all now be on a par with senior leagues, same disciplinary procedures etc, except if you get sent of in for example a ERJFA game you could get fined, yet if you moved and played EoS you wouldn't. So in theory you would be worse off ERJFA?

[GNU_Linux]

Another question I had just thought of is currently there is the Alex Jack cup played for by non-licencsed clubs in the south for a chance to get in the Scottish Cup. Is this going to be opened up to Junior clubs to give them a shot at the Scottish Cup? You could argue the Junior scottish cup is similar, but you have licenced clubs taking part in that who already get access.
 
Also not sure if there are any junior players reading, but what is there take on the fact that from next season you could all now be on a par with senior leagues, same disciplinary procedures etc, except if you get sent of in for example a ERJFA game you could get fined, yet if you moved and played EoS you wouldn't. So in theory you would be worse off ERJFA?

I wouldn't foresee an Alex Jack counterpart until such a time there are more licensed clubs. As it stands the only junior clubs with a license are Banks O Dee & Girvan (due to previous SOS membership).

Also to clarify the EOS non-members play in Alex Jack Cup & SOS non-members in Alba Cup. Winners of each face off with the winner getting Scottish cup place.

[Burnie_man]

17 minutes ago, honestly united said:

Also not sure if there are any junior players reading, but what is there take on the fact that from next season you could all now be on a par with senior leagues, same disciplinary procedures etc, except if you get sent of in for example a ERJFA game you could get fined, yet if you moved and played EoS you wouldn't. So in theory you would be worse off ERJFA?

Good point, another illustration of the lack of parity in discipline procedures if the SJFA are allowed to run it.

[Kilbowie Benches]

19 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

No straw clutching, I think what is abundantly clear to everyone now the "full story" is a little clearer is there is no agreement as yet for any of the Junior leagues to enter the Pyramid, so much so TJ wants the SFA Board to do something.

The objections to disciplinary procedures not aligning and the ERJFA being the main sticking points. Still no plan on the table yet either for the play-offs.

Then there is the issue of the NRJFA apparently not being interested, leaving the SJFA being unable to agree to anything as they dont have a mandate to split up the regions.

Juniors in the Pyramid next season? I'd be taking a look at a plan B if I were a Junior club wanting access next season.

The discipline is aligned and agreed and the ERJFA entering was agreed prior to the Maxwell e mail.Hence the comment about going over old ground.

SFA board will meet and the EoS will get telt!

[lowenan]

1 minute ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The discipline is aligned and agreed and the ERJFA entering was agreed prior to the Maxwell e mail.Hence the comment about going over old ground.

SFA board will meet and the EoS will get telt!

What about the HL/LL dividing line? What will happen to the North of Tay teams? There is just no complete plan in place. 

[Burnie_man]

Just now, Kilbowie Benches said:

The discipline is aligned and agreed and the ERJFA entering was agreed prior to the Maxwell e mail.Hence the comment about going over old ground.

SFA board will meet and the EoS will get telt!

Is that what TJ and Matt are feeding you now, what do you think the chances of that happening are?  the SFA cannot "tell" anyone on the PWG what to agree and what not to agree. There was no agreement on the ERJFA entering.

The discipline clearly is not aligned as others have pointed out.

[GNU_Linux]

What about the HL/LL dividing line? What will happen to the North of Tay teams? There is just no complete plan in place. 

Also the current Tay dividing line is being used for the Lowland League advert on both the LL site & the SFA's own website

[stanley]

About time there was an official statement.  Tedious having to go over the same things for months with no clarity at all from SFA.

One thing is for certain.  I have more faith in members on here to come up with a solution than I do in the likes of Maxwell.  The whole thing seems like a huge mess with no proper leadership or understanding from above.

My gut feeling is that the juniors will end up in at level six and it will be a mess.  I reckon the SFA don't really care and want whatever seems easiest to them i.e just putting juniors in the pyramid without giving any thought to how things will work or issues it will cause.

[Kilbowie Benches]

32 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Is that what TJ and Matt are feeding you now, what do you think the chances of that happening are?  the SFA cannot "tell" anyone on the PWG what to agree and what not to agree. There was no agreement on the ERJFA entering.

The discipline clearly is not aligned as others have pointed out.

The SFA have agreed that it’s aligned!

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The SFA have agreed that it’s aligned!

The leagues disagree, and variances have been pointed out in the minutes.  No agreement = no progress.