The_Kincardine Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: They won't. They don't want us to leave on a No Deal basis. They'll delay the process for as long as they possibly can, in the hope there will be a change of govt, and subsequently a 2nd referendum, or the revocation of Article 50. The EU doesn't have the option of delaying Brexit. They can give us options but it's not their choice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lichtgilphead Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: The EU doesn't have the option of delaying Brexit. They can give us options but it's not their choice. I don't think that's the point that John & I are discussing. He thinks that if we ask for a further extension (to hold a GE, for example), that the EU will grant it. I'm not so sure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 6 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said: I don't think that's the point that John & I are discussing. He thinks that if we ask for a further extension (to hold a GE, for example), that the EU will grant it. I'm not so sure. OK I did jump in too quickly...but I do think that asking for an option isn't an option. We'll leave The EU in October whatever the deal is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 I'm realising that to understand what's happening in the UK at the moment, you have to look at American politics from a few years back. When Trump was elected on a wave of populist lies and dog whistle policies, we all stood back and waited for the penny to drop......that sooner rather than later, decent people will rebel against blatant populism, and that mainstream American politicians of both parties would refuse to allow Trump's ignorance and divisive policies tear the USA apart. It hasn't happened. Moderate Republicans have fallen into line with Trump, and there are a huge amount of voters who have embraced his message and who want more of it. The USA is more divided now than at any point since the Vietnam war. And where America leads, the UK will follow. We're all waiting for Johnson and his idiotic brand of right-wing populism to fail.......because we all refuse to believe that it can possibly succeed. But what happens when/if it doesn't fail ? What happens when moderate Tories fall into line and support Johnson ? He already has the majority of UK newspapers supporting him, and there are millions in the country who WANT a right-wing populist as PM. We all keep on waiting for common-sense to kick in....in regards to Brexit, to devolution in Scotland and Northern Ireland, in future social and economic policies.....but the direction of travel to me suggests that it will not necessarily happen. We live in strange and troubled times. The two situations are not directly comparable; Trump is metaphorically (and on the Mexican border probably literally) getting away with murder because the US economy is in fairly robust health. Nothing to do with him or his administration, it's like his presidency is some sort of driverless government - that's why he retains any sort of rating.The UK is a very different proposition, with a stagnant economy, fucked housing market and a plunging currency. Even the mildest Brexit will be disastrous as overseas business chiefs and investors have already turbocharged their plans to scale back activity or exit the UK. Iran, royal weans and cricket will not mask the impending sense of disaster, and it is very noticeable indeed that Johnson's chutzpah has all but evaporated in his recent peregrinations around this Sceptred Isle.America is a nation cleaved in two along racial lines, but there is still bread in the shops and gas in the filling stations. Sooner or later it will dawn on folk here that there is a very real possibility that the latter might become a serious problem in the UK; at that point we will be into unknown territory, but it could quickly become violent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said: I don't think that's the point that John & I are discussing. He thinks that if we ask for a further extension (to hold a GE, for example), that the EU will grant it. I'm not so sure. Didn't the EU grant us that extension until Oct 31? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, ICTJohnboy said: Didn't the EU grant us that extension until Oct 31? Yes, with fairly heavy hints it would be the last one. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: Yes, with fairly heavy hints it would be the last one. I suspect both sides will be pleased to find any excuse to further extend. That could very well lead to a vote of no confidence in the Govt which will lead to a GE. This will basically be a Brexit election, and hopefully common sense will prevail. Edited July 31, 2019 by ICTJohnboy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: I suspect both sides will be pleased to find any excuse to further extend. To what end? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: To what end? See edit to my previous post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: See edit to my previous post. I think they'd be looking for something more concrete than "could very well lead to" a vote of no confidence. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said: I think they'd be looking for something more concrete than "could very well lead to" a vote of no confidence. I think they will bite our hand off for that option, and pray it will come to pass. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: I think they will bite our hand off for that option, and pray it will come to pass. We'll see. I get the feeling that the mood music in the EU27 is turning more towards an irritability at being held to ransom and a desire to get to a conclusion and to get on with their lives. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Looking forward to linking this thread in the political predictions thread in three months 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 8 hours ago, ICTJohnboy said: I suspect both sides will be pleased to find any excuse to further extend. That could very well lead to a vote of no confidence in the Govt which will lead to a GE. This will basically be a Brexit election, and hopefully common sense will prevail. Not convinced. The slavering hordes who wanted to "take back control" have had a three-year lesson in exactly what this voting malarkey can and cannot achieve. Fag-packet calculations based on turnout suggest up to 4 million voters turned out for the referendum and not for the GE in 2015. Even if these "first-timers" retained any engagement by 2017, nearly two million failed to turn out for Tweeza's Coronation attempt. Factor in that a few young voters will have reached majority, and are overwhelmingly pro-european in their outlook - or at least unwilling to live in a country like the Tories seem intent on creating - and that many older. masively pro-leave voters have, bluntly, died, I am confident that a new referendum, with BOTH sides held to account for any promises/statements/accusations they may make, would result in an overwhelmingly remain result. I don't believe there is an appetite to "just get on with it" - people are more aware now of what a cluster this is, and "act in haste, repent at leisure" really is in people's minds. I have spoken to a few who have changed their minds since 2016 - a couple from remain to leave, but the majority from leave to remain. In the privacy of a polling booth, I think that would skew even further towards remain. However, my point is that this GE is not, should not and indeed MUST not be about Brexit, other than as an example of the Tories' inability to do their fucking job. I care more about the disabled, the poor, the homeless. and the refugee than I do about whether we are in or out. It's my opinion only, but anyone who cares more about a fucking flag or the colour of some poor bastárd's skin than they do about our citizens actually dying because of the policies of our Government should not only be shamed and called out whenever they spout their bile, they should be forced (for example) to get off the LBC phone-in, and stand in their local town centre, explaining the impact of immigration on their local NHS - including all facts and figures, because they've done their research, right? They're not just repeating bigoted shite from the Mail or Excess. No, not at all. As an encore, they could provide solid proof of Corbyn's treason over the years (Yep, that's Privy Council Member Jeremy Corbyn). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: Not convinced. The slavering hordes who wanted to "take back control" have had a three-year lesson in exactly what this voting malarkey can and cannot achieve. Fag-packet calculations based on turnout suggest up to 4 million voters turned out for the referendum and not for the GE in 2015. Even if these "first-timers" retained any engagement by 2017, nearly two million failed to turn out for Tweeza's Coronation attempt. Factor in that a few young voters will have reached majority, and are overwhelmingly pro-european in their outlook - or at least unwilling to live in a country like the Tories seem intent on creating - and that many older. masively pro-leave voters have, bluntly, died, I am confident that a new referendum, with BOTH sides held to account for any promises/statements/accusations they may make, would result in an overwhelmingly remain result. I don't believe there is an appetite to "just get on with it" - people are more aware now of what a cluster this is, and "act in haste, repent at leisure" really is in people's minds. I have spoken to a few who have changed their minds since 2016 - a couple from remain to leave, but the majority from leave to remain. In the privacy of a polling booth, I think that would skew even further towards remain. However, my point is that this GE is not, should not and indeed MUST not be about Brexit, other than as an example of the Tories' inability to do their fucking job. I care more about the disabled, the poor, the homeless. and the refugee than I do about whether we are in or out. It's my opinion only, but anyone who cares more about a fucking flag or the colour of some poor bastárd's skin than they do about our citizens actually dying because of the policies of our Government should not only be shamed and called out whenever they spout their bile, they should be forced (for example) to get off the LBC phone-in, and stand in their local town centre, explaining the impact of immigration on their local NHS - including all facts and figures, because they've done their research, right? They're not just repeating bigoted shite from the Mail or Excess. No, not at all. As an encore, they could provide solid proof of Corbyn's treason over the years (Yep, that's Privy Council Member Jeremy Corbyn). Good post - Totally agree that the poor, the homeless and the refugees should be more of a consideration, but campaigning for more to be spent on these issues is never a vote winner. Surely better to campaign on a ticket of stop this brexit madness now? Even JC would have to agree that putting a stop to it would free up more cash for issues more dear to his heart. Edited August 1, 2019 by ICTJohnboy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 2 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: Not convinced. The slavering hordes who wanted to "take back control" have had a three-year lesson in exactly what this voting malarkey can and cannot achieve. Fag-packet calculations based on turnout suggest up to 4 million voters turned out for the referendum and not for the GE in 2015. Even if these "first-timers" retained any engagement by 2017, nearly two million failed to turn out for Tweeza's Coronation attempt. Factor in that a few young voters will have reached majority, and are overwhelmingly pro-european in their outlook - or at least unwilling to live in a country like the Tories seem intent on creating - and that many older. masively pro-leave voters have, bluntly, died, I am confident that a new referendum, with BOTH sides held to account for any promises/statements/accusations they may make, would result in an overwhelmingly remain result. I don't believe there is an appetite to "just get on with it" - people are more aware now of what a cluster this is, and "act in haste, repent at leisure" really is in people's minds. I have spoken to a few who have changed their minds since 2016 - a couple from remain to leave, but the majority from leave to remain. In the privacy of a polling booth, I think that would skew even further towards remain. However, my point is that this GE is not, should not and indeed MUST not be about Brexit, other than as an example of the Tories' inability to do their fucking job. I care more about the disabled, the poor, the homeless. and the refugee than I do about whether we are in or out. It's my opinion only, but anyone who cares more about a fucking flag or the colour of some poor bastárd's skin than they do about our citizens actually dying because of the policies of our Government should not only be shamed and called out whenever they spout their bile, they should be forced (for example) to get off the LBC phone-in, and stand in their local town centre, explaining the impact of immigration on their local NHS - including all facts and figures, because they've done their research, right? They're not just repeating bigoted shite from the Mail or Excess. No, not at all. As an encore, they could provide solid proof of Corbyn's treason over the years (Yep, that's Privy Council Member Jeremy Corbyn). That's a good post, however the main political parties seem to be doing almost ALL of their campaigning based upon the incorrect assumption that "Brexit" is all anyone cares about and other policies don't appear to merit even a passing mention. This obviously suits the hard liners as they can almost "sneak" major policy change through without even as much as a raised eyebrow. Getting back to the actual EU referendum, I believe a lot of people have forgotten that many voted "leave" simply as a sort of protest vote as they had nowhere else left to turn. Remember we were in a situation where the parliamentary Labour party had become more right wing than the Tories, the Lib Dems had sold voters down the river and had become a small fringe outfit and using areas such as the NW & NE of England as an example, people had been shafted, shafted again and basically left to rot, so what was the answer ? Now, when you've got despised characters such as Osborne, Cameron and then the so called liberal Elite with your Geldofs and Rowlings coupled with your hated big business figures like Branson mouthing off about how wonderful life is in the EU, then even now it's easy to see why so many people just did the polar opposite of what these hated individuals were asking them to do. Not everyone who voted leave was or is a racist or a bigot or an EDL supporting type, despite what the popular stereotype may be. Having said all that, I do believe many who did vote "leave" out of anger and disillusionment may now appreciate that things may and most probably will, become even worse and the very people who they hoped to hurt, are, like most times throughout history, going to escape unhurt as it will as always be the peasants of the land who'll be left to pick up the pieces and bear the brunt of any economical and financial downturn, whatever side they think that they're on................... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 46 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said: Good post - Totally agree that the poor, the homeless and the refugees should be more of a consideration, but campaigning for more to be spent on these issues is never a vote winner. Surely better to campaign on a ticket of stop this brexit madness now? Even JC would have to agree that putting a stop to it would free up more cash for issues more dear to his heart. Oh, there's no doubt that in normal times, when the poor, homeless and displaced were out of sight, these were no vote winners. These are not, however, normal times. I don't think the's many who haven't, at some point, been affected by the vicious policies introduced by this crew. From the sanctions regime at the DWP, to the waiting times for ambulances/a&e, to the lack of Police cover, to the increase in fire-related deaths (even though, as they do, they changed the definition to try and hide this - the figures still went up even with their lies). Look at me. I'm one of those Civil Servants with a gold-plated pension that al ways does all right. well... 1. I am currently above the national average wage by a couple of hundred pounds. Fair enough, but that amount includes an allowance for (mandatory) night, weekend and unsocial hours. Without this, I drop to almost 18% below the average. And I'm not sat in a cushy office - I fill an operational role which has seen me suffer assaults over two decades, and witnessed colleagues suffer life-threatening injuries. Mt reward from this mob for representing the Crown? I currently take home £38 LESS than I did in 2010. Not adusted for inflation, not the equivalent of. I am a Government employee, and they have cut my (and many others') pay. 2. One of my daughters (who is mother to my first grand-daughter) is disabled with a skeletal disorder. She has good days and bad, like most. She was assessed on a good day, and all support withdrawn. On appeal (like two thirds of cases) some of the support was reinstated, including her funding for an electric wheelchair/mobility vehicle. It took another eighteen months to regain the funding to help her buy a modified car, during which time she could live a full and normal life as long as she was near a 13 amp socket. No bac-dated support or apology has ever been forthcoming. So, I'm in the "should be OK, not noticing any real issue" camp. Except that this Government and their attitude towards the working class has left me poorer, my daughter worse off (even after resolution of her problem, you can't fix the damage done to her spine while she struggled to be a normal wife and mother, or compensate for two years on anti-depressants, and the fun she's having coming off them now). Daughter number three is going to graduate next year as a massively talented, motivated and alround great drama educator/facilitator - she's already got an impressive CV working with some of the best-known Theatres and Charities around. Her working life will begin, as so many, shackled wth over 50 grand's worth of debt. Daughter number four has just finished GCSEs, and is making her choices based, to some extent, on affordability rather than quality. It breaks my heart that, even with all the support we can give her, she will go where she can, not where she wants or needs to to follow her dreams. I would say that our family is not that unusual. Maybe we could have understood, were Austerity actually necessary, but nine fucking years of increased giveaways to their corporate masters coupled with the oiks being told they must tighten their belts is beginning to wear thin for even the thickest. And this is what we must push on the doorstep. Brexit is a shitshow, but also a sideshow. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, WATTOO said: That's a good post, however the main political parties seem to be doing almost ALL of their campaigning based upon the incorrect assumption that "Brexit" is all anyone cares about and other policies don't appear to merit even a passing mention. This obviously suits the hard liners as they can almost "sneak" major policy change through without even as much as a raised eyebrow. Getting back to the actual EU referendum, I believe a lot of people have forgotten that many voted "leave" simply as a sort of protest vote as they had nowhere else left to turn. Remember we were in a situation where the parliamentary Labour party had become more right wing than the Tories, the Lib Dems had sold voters down the river and had become a small fringe outfit and using areas such as the NW & NE of England as an example, people had been shafted, shafted again and basically left to rot, so what was the answer ? Now, when you've got despised characters such as Osborne, Cameron and then the so called liberal Elite with your Geldofs and Rowlings coupled with your hated big business figures like Branson mouthing off about how wonderful life is in the EU, then even now it's easy to see why so many people just did the polar opposite of what these hated individuals were asking them to do. Not everyone who voted leave was or is a racist or a bigot or an EDL supporting type, despite what the popular stereotype may be. Having said all that, I do believe many who did vote "leave" out of anger and disillusionment may now appreciate that things may and most probably will, become even worse and the very people who they hoped to hurt, are, like most times throughout history, going to escape unhurt as it will as always be the peasants of the land who'll be left to pick up the pieces and bear the brunt of any economical and financial downturn, whatever side they think that they're on................... The bolded bit - We in Labour are absofuckinglutely NOT campaigning on this single issue. We are campaigning, in a nutshell, as the only iable Party, whether in or out of Europe, who will revers the policies of these cúnts who are, and I cannot say this often enough, pursuing policies which are killing the people of this country. The Tories are, and have been for a long time, focussing on Brexit for a perfectly good reason. While it's something that may entice half of the electorate to vote for them, they have literally NOTHING else to entice ANY of the populace. It's suits them to have the media cover Labour's response to their one trick, rather than than our own agenda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BawWatchin Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: The bolded bit - We in Labour are absofuckinglutely NOT campaigning on this single issue. We are campaigning, in a nutshell, as the only iable Party, whether in or out of Europe, who will revers the policies of these cúnts who are, and I cannot say this often enough, pursuing policies which are killing the people of this country. The Tories are, and have been for a long time, focussing on Brexit for a perfectly good reason. While it's something that may entice half of the electorate to vote for them, they have literally NOTHING else to entice ANY of the populace. It's suits them to have the media cover Labour's response to their one trick, rather than than our own agenda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: The bolded bit - We in Labour are absofuckinglutely NOT campaigning on this single issue. We are campaigning, in a nutshell, as the only iable Party, whether in or out of Europe, who will revers the policies of these cúnts who are, and I cannot say this often enough, pursuing policies which are killing the people of this country. The Tories are, and have been for a long time, focussing on Brexit for a perfectly good reason. While it's something that may entice half of the electorate to vote for them, they have literally NOTHING else to entice ANY of the populace. It's suits them to have the media cover Labour's response to their one trick, rather than than our own agenda. Until Labour get rid of Watson and his band of closet Tories then I'm afraid they just can't be taken seriously by anyone................ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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