Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[peasy23]

Insurance has absolutely nothing to do with it. I’ve heard the myth repeated many times that because the government told businesses to close they’re somehow covered insurance-wise. As it happens, I closed my outlets (a pub / restaurant / live music venue and a club) shortly after Boris recommended that everyone stay away from pubs and clubs, on the basis that if it wasn’t safe for customers, then by implication it wasn’t safe for staff, and several days before we were instructed to do so. That was also long before the furlough scheme was introduced, so there was no safety net. As far as insurance goes, we wouldn’t have been covered either way, so it made absolutely no difference whatsoever. Pubs and clubs who waited to be told to shut are not in receipt of bumper insurance payouts I can assure you. 

Played golf with a guy the other week who is a loss adjuster for an insurance company dealing solely with commercial policies. He has been dealing with claims from businesses for loss of income due to being forced to close, but said the number of policies that actually have a specific clause that will see them get any sort of pay out is miniscule.

[Thereisalight..]

2 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

China and Italy didn’t lockdown for a laugh, there’s obviously a link with the economy and health but what we’ve done is extremely naive and shortsighted. Other countries who made the sensible and obvious choice are now recovering financially at a quicker rate then we are. To say that large gatherings, facemasks and leaving schools open made no difference then do a complete u-turn deserves all the criticism thrown at them. I don’t think it’s over the top at all. Our government and others were quick enough to sneer at China or Italy and say it was down to lies or demographics we won’t be effected. Let’s all shake hands with coronavirus patients in hospital.

Will ask again how can Greece, who was supposedly a financial wreck, come out of this looking so much better?

The uk approach is like driving a car at a wall and saying that we will hit it so there’s no point in breaking because we must keep the car running.

Such an apt advert below your post!

 

[Fullerene]

4 hours ago, peasy23 said:

Played golf with a guy the other week who is a loss adjuster for an insurance company dealing solely with commercial policies. He has been dealing with claims from businesses for loss of income due to being forced to close, but said the number of policies that actually have a specific clause that will see them get any sort of pay out is miniscule.

I can imagine a typical conversation.

Force Majeure?  Force Majeure? What are you talking about?  Speak English.

Even the auto correct on my phone refuses to recognise this term.

[SlipperyP]

Scotland(government( fucked this.........

[Arthur Orton]

2 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

 

Ah it's the next briefing, nice and blank ahead of the upcoming U turn.

[Mark Connolly]

9 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

OK. So you made a statement, were asked for examples to back it up, provided literally zero and are now throwing a strop.

But it's all the fault of SNP supporters?

Makes a change from it being the fault of his colleagues.

[cameron2000]

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken. 

 

 

Without the economic powers to do so there was absolutely no point even considering a Scotland only lockdown at that point. Decisions now are different because the economic policies such as furlough are already on place till the end of July (with partial furloughing beyond this) .

 

 

 

No - I don't believe in a free ride for the Scottish Government but there's so much nonsense being written by armchair hindsight experts.

 

 

 

The but look at what X country did argument is misleading - just because a country has a similar population size does not mean that the exact same one-fits-all approach can be used. Demographics will be different from country to country, not to mention that the measures of infections and deaths between countries is like comparing apples with pears.

 

 

 

I believe that Sturgeon and the Scottish government were between a rock and a hard place regards this - national emergency planning is a UK responsibility - yes there is a role for the Scottish government but the reality is that that agenda is driven by the UK government. Condemned if she did and condemned if she didn't - as shown by Britnat zoomers like Jackson Carlaw criticising over the extension of the lockdown.

 

 

 

I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

 

 

There is also a good reason why Scottish deaths are not far off the more urbanised parts of England - we have a higher proportion of people with underlying health issues.

 

 

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

 

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

 

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

 

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

 

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.

 

 

Not implementing Cygnus is a serious negligence - I am still not convinced that even if its recommendations had been implemented that there would have been a fundamentally different result - it focused on pandemic influenza - something nowhere on the scale of this disease.

 

 

 

I also think there may be more systemic longer running issues with the health and care system that have made matters worse:

 

 

 

* Over a decade of underfunding

 

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

 

* Culture of blame that discourages openness and learning

 

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

 

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

 

 

And that's just the NHS - don't start me on private care for the elderly.

 

 

It's not as simple as some make out - there's all shades of grey when it comes to the decisions - I don't think the Scottish Government has been perfect - far from it - but equally some of the scorn thrown is complete over the top. Hindsight revisionism is a dangerous thing.

You say national emergency planning is the UK’s responsibility and you’re right - well then with that being the case why did Sturgeon litterly chose to create her own guidance different to England at every single stage. I can’t help but feel it’s down to a desire to do better than England.

 

If the Scottish Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place they put themselves there by unnecessarily taking their own path through this.

[Bairnardo]

You say national emergency planning is the UK’s responsibility and you’re right - well then with that being the case why did Sturgeon litterly chose to create her own guidance different to England at every single stage. I can’t help but feel it’s down to a desire to do better than England.
 
If the Scottish Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place they put themselves there by unnecessarily taking their own path through this.

Isn't planning different from response?

[cameron2000]

Isn't planning different from response?

Planning is the preparation of your response

[Steven W]

England to review the 2M. rule witihin days.

Will we hear similar at today's briefing?

[Arthur Orton]

26 minutes ago, Steven W said:

England to review the 2M. rule witihin days.

Will we hear similar at today's briefing?

No we will hear some rhetoric about the science says and wait a week until its revealed thousands more people will lose their jobs and then go with 1m like everywhere else.

No doubt at some point like Germany etc there will be another outbreak of cases.  You then manage it sensibly like they're doing as there is no vaccine, get on with life and re establishing your economy and normality.

Worth remembering that it's around a 0.07 mortality rate in Scotland, the sick man of Europe and nearly half those deaths attributed to the decision to fire oldies into care homes where staff had minimal training, no PPE and no testing.  The equivalent of jumping into a shark infested sea.

In essence the chances of those with no co morbities and are fairly healthy dying are pretty bloody minimal.  You're almost a likely to win the lottery.

It looks like the proposed deadliness of this virus was vastly overstated by the same experts who did similar with bird flu etc etc.

Taking those odds into account is it really worth destroying your nation's economy, wrecking the NHS, fucking up kids education, destroying peoples mental health.

I would suggest not.  Maybe time for that wee grown up conversation we were promised all these weeks ago.

Take cognisance of other nations management, look at alternative science, don't just follow the reports that suit your rhetoric.

Be a real leader.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Tynierose

[Billy Jean King]

Greece controlled it simply by locking down two weeks earlier. 4000 deaths could have been 400 had we done so.
Its inexcusable and the snp have to answer why and not hide behind whatabootery and pseudo science that suited the economy not humans.
Greece was in financial ruin was it not?
Let's compare other countries when it's all over. Aye ok, great argument.
They killed 3500 people for the economy and made the economy worse than a quicker lockdown would have done.
A complete and utter failure of leadership.

How could they shut down 2 weeks before England without the financial protection schemes controlled by WM. Your talking shite.

[pandarilla]

The snp hardcore supporters cost Scotland with their militant and off-putting behaviour calling naysayers idiots.
As for Scottish talent just look at the labour front bench since 1990.
The more the snp fan boys shout down anyone who argues against the snp the more likely it is that we will lose another referendum.
We need independence, covid has shown that and if it's so obvious you dont need to shout about it because it will happen.

You had a bit of a mare last night.

You opened up by saying the sturgeon and the snp deserve 'as much' criticism as Johnson and the tories which is just nonsense.

Only one of them had the power to handle this properly.

You then slide the attack to the 'over the top' element of the snp supporters - but that's a completely separate point.

On a side note it would be interesting to know what sturgeon would've done if she had the powers of independence. My hunch is that we'd have followed the arden/nz model - but with much less success (due to the fact that we've got such close ties with England - who had huge problems).

But there was no way she could come out and criticise the wm way, as that would be just too risky. It could've been political suicide, and would've jeapordised the independence campaign.

As things turned out though, it could've also been also been a masterstroke. But she's too canny to take those big political gambles.

[Juanhourjoe]

24 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

11 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

Greece controlled it simply by locking down two weeks earlier. 4000 deaths could have been 400 had we done so.
Its inexcusable and the snp have to answer why and not hide behind whatabootery and pseudo science that suited the economy not humans.
Greece was in financial ruin was it not?
Let's compare other countries when it's all over. Aye ok, great argument.
They killed 3500 people for the economy and made the economy worse than a quicker lockdown would have done.
A complete and utter failure of leadership.

How could they shut down 2 weeks before England without the financial protection schemes controlled by WM. Your talking shite.

I don't think it necessarily had to be a full lockdown of daily life, from the the start. I've wondered what powers legally sturgeon had to close airports. Or even shut off access to England if necessary. 

In the isle of man. Everything has gone back to normal, without anyone being allowed in. And in the more remote, less populated US states. It never really got going. Again a proper shutdown, never actually happened there. But there were travel restrictions.

I get economically, you can't finance doing much different from England. But there was always another way.

 

[Steven W]

34 minutes ago, Tynierose said:

No we will hear some rhetoric about the science says and wait a week until its revealed thousands more people will lose their jobs and then go with 1m like everywhere else.

No doubt at some point like Germany etc there will be another outbreak of cases.  You then manage it sensibly like they're doing as there is no vaccine, get on with life and re establishing your economy and normality.

Worth remembering that it's around a 0.07 mortality rate in Scotland, the sick man of Europe and nearly half those deaths attributed to the decision to fire oldies into care homes where staff had minimal training, no PPE and no testing.  The equivalent of jumping into a shark infested sea.

In essence the chances of those with no co morbities and are fairly healthy dying are pretty bloody minimal.  You're almost a likely to win the lottery.

It looks like the proposed deadliness of this virus was vastly overstated by the same experts who did similar with bird flu etc etc.

Taking those odds into account is it really worth destroying your nation's economy, wrecking the NHS, fucking up kids education, destroying peoples mental health.

I would suggest not.  Maybe time for that wee grown up conversation we were promised all these weeks ago.

Take cognisance of other nations management, look at alternative science, don't just follow the reports that suit your rhetoric.

Be a real leader.

 

 

I agree with you on all fronts.

I just wonder after the week they've had, stemming from Swinney's ridiculous comments last Sunday, maybe the penny might drop soon.

Changing the 2M. rule at the same time as England would at long last show some desire to return to normal. I'm not holding my breath though.

[Mistermark 75]

 

 

[beefybake]

8 hours ago, peasy23 said:

Played golf with a guy the other week who is a loss adjuster for an insurance company dealing solely with commercial policies. He has been dealing with claims from businesses for loss of income due to being forced to close, but said the number of policies that actually have a specific clause that will see them get any sort of pay out is miniscule.

From the bits and pieces I've read, general impression is that insurance companies were moving heaven and earth to avoid paying out on anything

connected to coronavirus.

Edited June 20, 2020 by beefybake

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Can someone point me to the thread written by P&Bs experts on what should have happened during this unprecedented pandemic and what should we doing going forward even though we still have little information on the long term effects of a 6 month old virus?

[Mark Connolly]

2 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Can someone point me to the thread written by P&Bs experts on what should have happened during this unprecedented pandemic and what should we doing going forward even though we still have little information on the long term effects of a 6 month old virus?

IIRC there was one where people took the piss out of some wee bug in China, and said it wouldn't come to anything, but I can't recall seeing any others.

[Steven W]

5 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Can someone point me to the thread written by P&Bs experts on what should have happened during this unprecedented pandemic and what should we doing going forward even though we still have little information on the long term effects of a 6 month old virus?

It's in the same thread as the one about fucking our economy over leading to unemployment levels the likes of haven't been seen in decades.