Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[madwullie]

2 minutes ago, madwullie said:

I know you're being glib, but for eg a glance about twitter shows a lot of the rabid snp no matter what supporters are still very much behind everything the snp do, and piling on anyone that has a different opinion.

I have been away from here for a couple of years, but I'd have expected more of that type of snp supporter to be on here. It's good it's not like that, but I've found it surprising. 

 

I suppose my point was as well, are people going to be critical of whatever their respective govts do just because its their govt and they feel the whole thing has been badly handled. It might explain the bad feeling down south about going too quickly while at the same time similar bad feeling up here about going too slowly. It doesn't seem to be because there's some mythical haply medium between the two approaches 

[madwullie]

8 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

Update from the daughter's school yesterday. When they go back in August S1 to S3 will start at 8.50 am, have 2 x 75 minute periods, and go home at 11.20 am. Only positive is that they will be in all 5 days. Can't see them having any practical classes at all.

S4-S6 will be in for 2 x 85 min periods in the afternoons.

What authority is that mate? Do you know if that's the policy across the region or if individual schools have had more of a say? 

[peasy23]

What authority is that mate? Do you know if that's the policy across the region or if individual schools have had more of a say? 

Glasgow. I'm guessing it might have to vary from school to school, her school has 3 entrances so they can use one for each age group.

[RH33]

4 minutes ago, madwullie said:

What authority is that mate? Do you know if that's the policy across the region or if individual schools have had more of a say? 

My colleuge is north Ayrshire and A-L surnames in Mon/Tue and rest Thu/Fri.

[Todd_is_God]

36 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Can't talk for Wee Wullie but it was the final nudge towards supporting independence for me.

I've always been pretty much a pro-European federalist - I spoiled my paper in 2014 - something I regret.

The SNP have been the only consistent party on EU membership - an independence within the EU is as about as closs to federalism as we'll get.

Likewise.

It was his "small percentage of population but equal partner is impossible" point I was asking about.

He claims it would be absolutely impossible within the UK, yet this is exactly what the EU offer.

[madwullie]

My boys are in slc primary and theyre planning for half school Monday Tuesday, clean wed, then rest Thurs Fri. If the numbers keep going the way they are I reckon they'll be back as close to normal as absolutely possible tho, maybe with 1m distancing 

[D.A.F.C]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The care homes, PPE and mass gatherings issues absolutely deserve criticism. But anyone who thinks the Scottish or Welsh governments could do much different to England going into this without the ability to sort out a furlough scheme is being a bit unrealistic.

By all means be angry and write letters to your representatives and their rivals letting them know your vote is up for grabs but don't pretend they could do much different on this central issue if England didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

Here’s a question. If there was a future pandemic considering Scotland’s dependence on oil, tourism and all the other industries that have been effected would we have been worse off being part of the uk or independent?

Not having a go just it’s that we seem to be vulnerable.

[RH33]

30 minutes ago, madwullie said:

My boys are in slc primary and theyre planning for half school Monday Tuesday, clean wed, then rest Thurs Fri. If the numbers keep going the way they are I reckon they'll be back as close to normal as absolutely possible tho, maybe with 1m distancing 

Renfrewshire issuing days and classes on Monday. I’ve a feeling mine will be in end of week as kids have S surname and seems be first way to leet it. 

However the nursery within a school I work in isn’t closing on Wednesdays for deep clean.

I do think it’ll change before they actually go back.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Seems like snp fans have deflected all the blame onto England and also stated that scotland couldn't survive in a crisis because england needs to bail them out.

Pretty sure we could have stopped mass gatherings, stopped the care home fiasco and stockpiled some PPE without someone else.

The whole care home stuff in hindsight might have been an issue but where were these voices in March? The evidence from Italy at the time was that hospitals were going to be swamped and freeing up bed spaces was one of the few options until NHS Louisa Jordan was in place.

 

So, some say - you should have tested those returning to care homes - given that there wasn't the testing capacity - the DNA of the virus was not made public until 19 January it is expecting bloody miracles to create and release a reliable test and to mass produce it. Even now the test is still giving a high level of false negatives - I've seen estimates put as high as 30% - that means one in 4.5 tests marked as negative could have been a Covid-19 carrier. False positives are estimated to be at the 20% mark (1 in 5 tests) - yes testing can help but it is not a magic bullet. The fact that NHS hasn't been run over is because of decisions made in March - never easy and I certainly don't envy anyone who had to make them knowing that it might cause deaths - it was always a weighing up scenario - an overwhelmed NHS and more deaths or an NHS coping but more deaths in the community. It certainly isn't black and white.

 

Shortages of PPE - again not surprising - the worldwide demand for PPE increased by several factors above the normal demand - manufacturers could not produce fast enough - we even had the sordid spectacle of the US government indulging in modern day piracy for supplies already bought by other Western governments.

 

Where there is a case to answer is PPE in care homes - not because the Scottish Government were not supplying it quickly enough - but because care homes, in the chase for profits, had not stocked the levels they should have had for a normal situation. These are the same care homes who employed agency staff and thought it was a good idea to move them between different care homes. The same care homes that covered up infections and didn't inform staff or residents. When I see the likes of Robert Kilgour whining about this it makes my blood boil - these people have charged the elderly fortunes for years, using underpaid staff, and cutting corners all in the name of profit.

 

 

For me, if there is a fundamental failure it is in pandemic planning itself - that isn't a Scottish Government responsibility but the UK government - it's they who ignored the recommendations of Cygnus - it is they who downscaled pandemic planning.

 

Beyond this there are structural reasons why the health and care sector could not cope:

 

* Nearly a decade of underfunding due to Westminster austerity measures

* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis

* Lack of investment and training in new technology

* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

 

Almost all of these have their roots in chronic underfunding driven by HM Treasury decisions.

 

As I said before, I've no problem with any government being held accountable - but any review of the response to Covid-19 (and there should be one) should not be looking just at the events during the crisis but the landscape beforehand. It should also be based on clear defined data, allowing comparisons - not back of an envelope calculations by journalists and politically opportunistic politicians who are armchair hindsight experts.

 

I don't think it's been helped either that the scientists themselves have not always been consistent - if you are relying on that advice but there is contradictory advice (SAGE's inclusive advice with children is a good example) then politicians decisions may be flawed.

 

Let's ask be honest - some attacks on the Scottish Government (and the UK government) are motivated, not by making government accountable, but by sheer political opportunism and mischief-making.

 

The issues are complex but some of the analysis doing the rounds is simplistic hindsight pish of the first degree.

 

 

[Michael W]

2 hours ago, mizfit said:

 

 

It’s definitely changed I think.
In May there was a feeling of wanting to take it slower up here and let England move fast.

 

 

This is mostly just opponents having something to beat the government with, I reckon. Somewhere else in the UK things are different and so that should be immediately equalised and the UK/Scottish Government is making an arse of it by not doing so. 

On one hand - Why are people in England allowed to do this and we can't? Economy in tatters! 

On the other - Too fast! Scotland isn't doing this and people will die! 

In Scotland's case there's probably the added aspect that a lot of people are fed up now, which probably adds to the pressure. 

[Dan Steele]

16 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Where there is a case to answer is PPE in care homes - not because the Scottish Government were not supplying it quickly enough - but because care homes, in the chase for profits, had not stocked the levels they should have had for a normal situation. These are the same care homes who employed agency staff and thought it was a good idea to move them between different care homes. The same care homes that covered up infections and didn't inform staff or residents.

A chase for profits at the expense of the elderly in need of specialist care, many at end of life, is what drives care home companies. Staff working under intense pressure before the pandemic and stretched to breaking point is a disgrace. I've said it before, strip the private element out and bring all care homes under SG/Council control. A National Care Service alongside National Health Service (Scotland) and provide the complete cradle to grave service.

[Fife Saint]

Florida have fucked it.

[Ludo*1]

3 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

A chase for profits at the expense of the elderly in need of specialist care, many at end of life, is what drives care home companies. Staff working under intense pressure before the pandemic and stretched to breaking point is a disgrace. I've said it before, strip the private element out and bring all care homes under SG/Council control. A National Care Service alongside National Health Service (Scotland) and provide the complete cradle to grave service.

Totally agree with this. My missus and my mother both work for major private care home companies (Balhousie & HCOne). The stories I've heard about both over the years, not just during this pandemic are fucking grim.  It's an underfunded sector with absolutely pathetic wages and the elderly are pretty much sacrificing their hard earned money for what amounts to the absolute most basic of 'care' wrapped up as being a specialist care centre. It's fucking grim.

[Gaz FFC]

1 minute ago, Fife Saint said:

Florida have fucked it.

Full of elderly too

[D.A.F.C]

25 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

The whole care home stuff in hindsight might have been an issue but where were these voices in March? The evidence from Italy at the time was that hospitals were going to be swamped and freeing up bed spaces was one of the few options until NHS Louisa Jordan was in place.

So, some say - you should have tested those returning to care homes - given that there wasn't the testing capacity - the DNA of the virus was not made public until 19 January it is expecting bloody miracles to create a release reliable test and to mass produce it. Even now the test is still giving a high level of false negatives - I've seen estimates put as high as 30% - that means one in 4.5 tests marked as negative could have been a Covid-19 carrier. False positives are estimated to be at the 20% mark (1 in 5 tests) - yes testing can help but it is not a magic bullet. The fact that NHS hasn't been run over is because of decisions made in March - never easy and I certainly don't envy anyone who had to make them knowing that it might cause deaths - it was always a weighing up scenario - an overwhelmed NHS and more deaths or an NHS coping but more deaths in the community. It certainly isn't black and white.

Shortages of PPE - again not surprising - the worldwide demand for PPE increased by several factors above the normal demand - manufacturers could not produce fast enough - we even had the sordid spectacle of the US government indulging in modern day piracy for supplies already bought by other Western governments.

Where there is a case to answer is PPE in care homes - not because the Scottish Government were not supplying it quickly enough - but because care homes, in the chase for profits, had not stocked the levels they should have had for a normal situation. These are the same care homes who employed agency staff and thought it was a good idea to move them between different care homes. The same care homes that covered up infections and didn't inform staff or residents. When I see the likes of Robert Kilgour whining about this it makes my blood boil - these people have charged the elderly fortunes for years, using underpaid staff, and cutting corners all in the name of profit.


For me, if there is a fundamental failure it is in pandemic planning itself - that isn't a Scottish Government responsibility but the UK government - it's they who ignored the recommendations of Cygnus - it is they who downscaled pandemic planning.

Beyond this there are structural reasons why the health and care sector could not cope:

* Nearly a decade of underfunding due to Westminster austerity measures
* Unmanageable workloads, leading to stress and burnout and a recruitment/retention crisis
* Lack of investment and training in new technology
* An ageing population and steep increase in demand for health services

Almost all of these have their roots in chronic underfunding driven by HM Treasury decisions.

As I said before, I've no problem with any government being held accountable - but any review of the response to Covid-19 (and there should be one) should not be looking just at the events during the crisis but the landscape beforehand. It should also be based on clear defined data, allowing comparisons - not back of an envelope calculations by journalists and politically opportunistic politicians who are armchair hindsight experts.

I don't think it's been helped either that the scientists themselves have not always been consistent - if you are relying on that advice but there is contradictory advice (SAGE's inclusive advice with children is a good example) then politicians decisions may be flawed.

Let's ask be honest - some attacks on the Scottish Government (and the UK government) are motivated, not by making government accountable, but by sheer political opportunism and mischief-making.

The issues are complex but some of the analysis doing the rounds is simplistic hindsight pish of the first degree.

Stop making excuses for an absolute failure at all levels of government. I’ve already posted the video in here where NS defends mass gatherings and schools that was three months ago. What the SNP has shown is that at their first major problem they’ve been caught out of their depth.

Italy was literally screaming down the tv at our scientific advisors to stop herd immunity yet the Scottish government never argued against it. Following scientific advice that a five year old could see was just driven by money and the economy. The scientists might as well not be there.

How can several other countries with little or no resources stop this so quickly? I get that we are in step with England but there’s so much more we could have done, if the tests are unreliable then test twice. Care homes were allowed to get decimated to keep the hospitals clear. Hospitals were built that never got used.

People have to answer as to why we got everything so badly wrong, the snp are accountable and cannot behind whatabootery and let’s see what happens at the end of it. We’ve just lost 10-0 and are watching the results come in saying well at least we aren’t losing 11-0.

I voted snp and I’m pro independence but this has cost the snp once questions get asked they have zero defence but will try hiding and scapegoating Boris.

[D.A.F.C]

1 minute ago, Snafu said:

The main thing that's bothered me and likely hampered the effectiveness of SAGE is why Dominic Cummings sat in on the meetings. He was/is an overbearing presence that might have been there to make sure the scientific advisors were aligned to government policy and planning on how to deal with the COVID-19 crisis. Very likely this control freak of epic proportions compromised much of the scientific advice to fit rather than giving independent advice to the government and passing this on to the population. Understand why Cummings (the most powerful man in the UK) was not replaceable??

https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/chief-scientific-advisers

https://www.civilservant.org.uk/spads-homepage.html

Problems seemed likely to reappear when Boris Johnson became Prime Minister in 2019 and appointed Dominic Cummings as his Chief of Staff / Spad.  Mr Cummings then insisted that all Spads should in future report to him, and not to 'their' Cabinet Minster.  This immediately removed one of the advantages of employing Spads - that they offered an independent political view of their departments' and wider government's policies.   It also meant that they could no longer easily be dismissed without due process or compensation. 

The pre-Johnson/Cummings legal position was that they were employed to assist a named Secretary of State and so were in effect redundant if that SoS lost their job.  They could also (under UK employment law) easily be dismissed within two years - unless they could show that they had been a whistle-blower, or claim sex/race discrimination etc.  In practice, however, they were ambitious politicos and so were unlikely to damage their future career by claiming unfair dismissal.  Post-Cummings, they are now much more likely to object to being discarded by him, and it looks as though tribunal cases could become commonplace.

Dominic Cummings' first dismissal - of the Chancellor's Spad Sonia Khan - was so abrupt that she did indeed claim compensation for her dismissal. 

Cummings reminds a lot me of this once well known tv character -

'The truth is what I tell the Prime Minister to believe'

He’s arguably responsible for half the deaths. I think the car trip thing is a distraction.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The main thing that's bothered me and likely hampered the effectiveness of SAGE is why Dominic Cummings sat in on the meetings. He was/is an overbearing presence that might have been there to make sure the scientific advisors were aligned to government policy and planning on how to deal with the COVID-19 crisis. Very likely this control freak of epic proportions compromised much of the scientific advice to fit rather than giving independent advice to the government and passing this on to the population. Understand why Cummings (the most powerful man in the UK) was not replaceable??
https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/chief-scientific-advisers
https://www.civilservant.org.uk/spads-homepage.html
Problems seemed likely to reappear when Boris Johnson became Prime Minister in 2019 and appointed Dominic Cummings as his Chief of Staff / Spad.  Mr Cummings then insisted that all Spads should in future report to him, and not to 'their' Cabinet Minster.  This immediately removed one of the advantages of employing Spads - that they offered an independent political view of their departments' and wider government's policies.   It also meant that they could no longer easily be dismissed without due process or compensation. 

The pre-Johnson/Cummings legal position was that they were employed to assist a named Secretary of State and so were in effect redundant if that SoS lost their job.  They could also (under UK employment law) easily be dismissed within two years - unless they could show that they had been a whistle-blower, or claim sex/race discrimination etc.  In practice, however, they were ambitious politicos and so were unlikely to damage their future career by claiming unfair dismissal.  Post-Cummings, they are now much more likely to object to being discarded by him, and it looks as though tribunal cases could become commonplace.

Dominic Cummings' first dismissal - of the Chancellor's Spad Sonia Khan - was so abrupt that she did indeed claim compensation for her dismissal. 

Cummings reminds a lot me of this once well known tv character -

'The truth is what I tell the Prime Minister to believe'

I have alluded to this in a previous post - contradictory scientific evidence and the role of SAGE.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Stop making excuses for an absolute failure at all levels of government. I’ve already posted the video in here where NS defends mass gatherings and schools that was three months ago. What the SNP has shown is that at their first major problem they’ve been caught out of their depth.

Italy was literally screaming down the tv at our scientific advisors to stop herd immunity yet the Scottish government never argued against it. Following scientific advice that a five year old could see was just driven by money and the economy. The scientists might as well not be there.

How can several other countries with little or no resources stop this so quickly? I get that we are in step with England but there’s so much more we could have done, if the tests are unreliable then test twice. Care homes were allowed to get decimated to keep the hospitals clear. Hospitals were built that never got used.

People have to answer as to why we got everything so badly wrong, the snp are accountable and cannot behind whatabootery and let’s see what happens at the end of it. We’ve just lost 10-0 and are watching the results come in saying well at least we aren’t losing 11-0.

I voted snp and I’m pro independence but this has cost the snp once questions get asked they have zero defence but will try hiding and scapegoating Boris.

I have not absolved any government from blame - I just think there should be a proper analysis of the whole handling of Covid-19 - not a back of a fag packet calculation. That is not just events during the crisis but the whole landscape beforehand, including pandemic emergency planning, NHS resourcing and funding, and the running of care homes.

 

I am not personally surprised that after 10 years of austerity and chronic underfunding of the NHS and public services that there have been problems.

 

The other thing that is clear, after the track and trace fiasco, is that how the Government awards IT contracts needs seriously overhauled. It's not the first time a major IT project has been a disaster after being awarded to their pet businesses.

 

[D.A.F.C]

Jenny Harries did some amount of u-turns.

I really fail to believe that it was just her being completely so inept.

Listened to her on BBC five live defending mass gatherings and telling an immuno suppressed mum who was in tears to send her kids to school as it was perfectly safe.

She reassured her several times that the science was sound.

How can it be safer to mix with more people during a pandemic?

Something stinks the scientists are going to get flung under the bus.

 

[D.A.F.C]

Just gets better