Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Well, no. For the reasons I mentioned above. It's in the SNP's best interests not to relax restrictions.

I don't think there's any logical basis for you to say that.

If you are right and they could now relax restrictions, then they'd be seen as one of the world's leading administrations. Nicola Sturgeon would become famous the world over. Weathering a global pandemic and coming out faster and stronger than more or less any other country in the world would win over even many of her biggest critics.

Yet, you think they're just sitting on this and hoping they get a good outcome in a few months? Why would anybody do that in any situation when they currently have the golden outcome available to them?

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense and I think you really need to stop and think this through.

[Todd_is_God]

13 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I don't think there's any logical basis for you to say that.

If you are right and they could now relax restrictions, then they'd be seen as one of the world's leading administrations. Nicola Sturgeon would become famous the world over. Weathering a global pandemic and coming out faster and stronger than more or less any other country in the world would win over even many of her biggest critics.

Yet, you think they're just sitting on this and hoping they get a good outcome in a few months? Why would anybody do that in any situation when they currently have the golden outcome available to them?

What you are saying makes absolutely no sense and I think you really need to stop and think this through.

I don't know if you are living in a vacuum, but there is plenty that you can do across Europe (and indeed parts of the UK) that you can't do in Scotland.

Aligning with them would hardly be becoming a world leading administration.

[Guest JTS98]

5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I don't know if you are living in a vacuum, but there is plenty that you can do across Europe (and indeed parts of the UK) that you can't do in Scotland.

Aligning with them would hardly be becoming a world leading administration.

Aligning with them just for the sake of alignment would also just be potentially hazardous tokenism.

As outlined above, the government (all governments) have clear motivation to lift restrictions as quickly as is safely possible.

You seem to be asserting that the Scottish government is choosing not to do this. It's a baffling assertion that has roots in no logical thinking whatsoever. Your argument is essentially that they are giving up the chance to be seen to be competent and successful (as well as the very real economic benefits) in the hope that some things will go their way in the future.

There isn't a political strategist alive who would ever take that view on anything.

Edited September 5, 2020 by JTS98

[Billy Jean King]

I don't know if you are living in a vacuum, but there is plenty that you can do across Europe (and indeed parts of the UK) that you can't do in Scotland.
Aligning with them would hardly be becoming a world leading administration.

There are also plenty places in Europe where you can't go out your front door without a mask and parts of Spain now making them mandatory at your table in bars and restaurants, remove only to sip or eat. France compulsory in work while working in the red zones. In those respects we are getting off lightly.

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

14 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I don't know if you are living in a vacuum, but there is plenty that you can do across Europe (and indeed parts of the UK) that you can't do in Scotland.
Aligning with them would hardly be becoming a world leading administration.

There are also plenty places in Europe where you can't go out your front door without a mask and parts of Spain now making them mandatory at your table in bars and restaurants, remove only to sip or eat. France compulsory in work while working in the red zones. In those respects we are getting off lightly.

Exactly, I don't know which countries he means that have vastly different restrictions to us. Whatever the SG decides it's Boris good, Sturgeon bad, whether we act first and England follows or the other way round. 

[Robin.Hood]

16 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

25 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

I don't know if you are living in a vacuum, but there is plenty that you can do across Europe (and indeed parts of the UK) that you can't do in Scotland.
Aligning with them would hardly be becoming a world leading administration.

There are also plenty places in Europe where you can't go out your front door without a mask 

See since I've had to wear masks at work. If this was the future and I had to wear a mask all the time I dont think id find it a huge issue. Yeh can be uncomfortable but once you wear it for a long period of time you get use to it. Wearing it for a few months now it has become part of life. 

 

[Guest JTS98]

8 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

See since I've had to wear masks at work. If this was the future and I had to wear a mask all the time I dont think id find it a huge issue. Yeh can be uncomfortable but once you wear it for a long period of time you get use to it. Wearing it for a few months now it has become part of life. 

 

Aye, it's not as bad as some people make out.

Been more or less mandatory if you want to do anything here for months so I've just got used to it. It's now just part of my leaving the flat routine to fire a mask on. I've not gone out without one since March. That's the way it is here.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather not. But it's not the burden some make it out to be.

Edited September 5, 2020 by JTS98

[Billy Jean King]

See since I've had to wear masks at work. If this was the future and I had to wear a mask all the time I dont think id find it a huge issue. Yeh can be uncomfortable but once you wear it for a long period of time you get use to it. Wearing it for a few months now it has become part of life. 
 

In general though can you imagine the outrage here with those sort of measures yet we are held up as "most severe in Europe". There is very little you can't do here you can do in England. They have just had their first crowd test events and our are next week. As always it's a week or 3 behind. Now being compared to other outliers in Europe for that very reason. NHS has to be the priority as I said earlier, it needs to be ramped back up to full normal operational capacity.

[s_dog]

12 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Exactly, I don't know which countries he means that have vastly different restrictions to us. Whatever the SG decides it's Boris good, Sturgeon bad, whether we act first and England follows or the other way round. 

No doubt Sweden.....

Anyway, thanks to those that have added some logical, well thought out posts in this thread in the last few pages. Makes it much more interesting than much of the usual entreched views.

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I'm struggling to see the logic in the constant implications (and occasional outright accusations) on this thread that the government, indeed any government, is somehow over-blowing this situation or seeking to keep people afraid. That the government is deliberately slowing the process down and cancelling people's fun for no reason.

1) Almost every election ever held is a referendum on the economy.

2) Electorates almost always wrongly or exaggeratedly ascribe both praise and blame to incumbent governments for the state of the economy.

This pint-sized political analysis went out of date in the 1990s champ. Literally no Scottish Parliament election has ever been a 'referendum on the economy': for the obvious enough fact that the SG doesn't control any of the key levers of economic performance. Voters understand this and so judge the government of the day on other issues such as:

i) leadership

ii) delivery of public services 

iii) identity/constitutional issues (Scottish/British nationalism; independence; Brexit) 

None of the previous three UK-wide elections have been 'a referendum on the economy' either: their outcome was determined by a combination of the above, with Brexit taking the role of Scottish independence south of the border in the previous two campaigns. 

What this means is that there is in fact great scope for the SG to detach itself from economic priorities in the build up to next year's election. The SG can call for furlough extensions and a much slower return to normal because it both doesn't pick up the tab directly for those policies and won't get the flak for a tanking economy anyway. Whether you support those policies or not, the simple facts are that all the benefits of such a change in policy would go to Sturgeon's door and all the costs to Westminster. It's an open goal for the SG to tack to the cautious side of resuming economic activity then. By simply taking a more cautious and/or more consistent line on handling the pandemic than a clowncar administration south of the border, they also enhance their argument that the Sturgeon is i) the best leader for the crisis and ii) that they are only interested in protecting public services like the NHS.

To this point at least in the pandemic, the cautious approach of the SG chimes with the SNP's electoral needs going into next year's election and there's no evidence that a 'get the economy going again' message is going to shift that. That doesn't make the SG's handling of the crisis particularly good though: they're doing at most a 4/10 job in comparison to other developed countries. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by vikingTON

[welshbairn]

15 minutes ago, s_dog said:

No doubt Sweden.....

Aye, most likely..

Quote

At the moment, gatherings of more than 50 people are not allowed. The Government's decision includes events involving more than 50 people at one and the same time. Museums, schools for younger children and preschools, recreation centers, swimming and sports halls for compound sporting, spontaneous sports, and exercise are excluded. Only table seating is allowed in cafés, restaurants, bars, and nightclubs so that everyone can keep a safe distance from each other.

https://www.visitstockholm.com/good-to-know/coronavirus/

[Tight minge]

https://www.visitstockholm.com/good-to-know/coronavirus/

My Swedish colleague decided to go back to Sweden for a few months and returned a couple of weeks ago. As a pass holder he and his family are allowed to enter back but must serve two weeks quarantine. Nearly every European pass holder is allowed to serve this as a stay at home notice. As he is from Sweden and it is deemed a mess, he and has family have had to serve their notice in a government quarantine centre (at his cost) for two weeks along with all the other high risk nationals (India/Pakistan/Saudi/etc).

Holding the ‘Swedish model’ up as any shining beacon is maybe a little foolish.

His father in law also passed away from Covid-19 when he was back in Sweden.

Swedens initial ‘success’ was more down to the nature an compliance of most Swedes rather than anything else.

[Guest JTS98]

30 minutes ago, virginton said:

This pint-sized political analysis went out of date in the 1990s champ. Literally no Scottish Parliament election has ever been a 'referendum on the economy': for the obvious enough fact that the SG doesn't control any of the key levers of economic performance. Voters understand this and so judge the government of the day on other issues such as:

i) leadership

ii) delivery of public services 

iii) identity/constitutional issues (Scottish/British nationalism; independence; Brexit) 

None of the previous three UK-wide elections have been 'a referendum on the economy' either: their outcome was determined by a combination of the above, with Brexit taking the role of Scottish independence south of the border in the previous two campaigns. 

What this means is that there is in fact great scope for the SG to detach itself from economic priorities in the build up to next year's election. The SG can call for furlough extensions and a much slower return to normal because it both doesn't pick up the tab directly for those policies and won't get the flak for a tanking economy anyway. Whether you support those policies or not, the simple facts are that all the benefits of such a change in policy would go to Sturgeon's door and all the costs to Westminster. It's an open goal for the SG to tack to the cautious side of resuming economic activity then. By simply taking a more cautious and/or more consistent line on handling the pandemic than a clowncar administration south of the border, they also enhance their argument that the Sturgeon is i) the best leader for the crisis and ii) that they are only interested in protecting public services like the NHS.

To this point at least in the pandemic, the cautious approach of the SG chimes with the SNP's electoral needs going into next year's election and there's no evidence that a 'get the economy going again' message is going to shift that. That doesn't make the SG's handling of the crisis particularly good though: they're doing at most a 4/10 job in comparison to other developed countries. 

Here ends the input from The Simple Man's Thinking Man.

Don't know if you've noticed, but the next Scottish election might be framed a little differently from the previous ones.

Also, read my list again and you'll see your reading comprehension ain't all it might be. Champ.

Good for you typing all that out though.

Edited September 5, 2020 by JTS98

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Todd is starting to clutch at straws now with his reasoning. If you want rid of the remaining restrictions becuase you’ve had enough of them by now then fine but don’t try to dress it up as a political thing. If anything the snp’s ideal scenario is to say “ these restrictions are not required because our cases are so low they are not necessarily, take that England! “

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

6 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Here ends the input from The Simple Man's Thinking Man.

Don't know if you've noticed, but the next Scottish election might be framed a little differently from the previous ones.

Also, read my list again and you'll see your reading comprehension ain't all it might be. Champ.

Good for you typing all that out though.

Economics is undoubtedly important, but i dont think its the absolute overarching priority for every single voter, it may be a secondary factor or contributory in peoples rationales but if you ask voters ‘what makes you vote for a party?’. Then I think you’re going to get a lot of answers that depend on economics but arent necessarily provided in such a way, ie from folks I know, public sector services are the priority, for some this will be economic, but for others its about management/mismanagement. So yes I acknowledge the impact of the state of the economy but think your assessment seems to be far too simplistic. 

The next election for the SP will be fought on the covid legacy and constitutional grounds imo. 

[Guest JTS98]

7 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Economics is undoubtedly important, but i dont think its the absolute overarching priority for every single voter, it may be a secondary factor or contributory in peoples rationales but if you ask voters ‘what makes you vote for a party?’. Then I think you’re going to get a lot of answers that depend on economics but arent necessarily provided in such a way, ie from folks I know, public sector services are the priority, for some this will be economic, but for others its about management/mismanagement. So yes I acknowledge the impact of the state of the economy but think your assessment seems to be far too simplistic. 

The next election for the SP will be fought on the covid legacy and constitutional grounds imo. 

Rather than allowing The Simple Man's Thinking Man to skew the discussion by editing out half the post, go back and read it. The part about the economy is a general point to discuss motivation before I come back to the SG later.

VT is, as usual, trying to misrepresent the discussion. That's because he's an idiot trying to play at being clever.

ETA: Asking people why they vote is a pointless pursuit. Most people either don't know or lie about it.

Edited September 5, 2020 by JTS98

[vikingTON]

11 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Don't know if you've noticed, but the next Scottish election might be framed a little differently from the previous ones.

It really won't be. Your thesis on why the SNP would obviously need a roaring economy to keep power was a great laugh though: what with them having first gained power just months before the biggest financial crash in nearly 80 years - that took down two of the main 'Scottish' banks with it - only to then, err, secure a smashing and unprecedented majority in 2011 anyway. And with a fighting chance of securing a similar result despite the economy tanking by nearly 20% earlier this year as well.  

It turns out then that the 'stupid' in the 'it's the economy, stupid' backroom slogan now refers to the two-bob Nate Silvers like yourself who actually still believe it. 

[vikingTON]

6 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Rather than allowing The Simple Man's Thinking Man to skew the discussion by editing out half the post, go back and read it. The part about the economy is a general point to discuss motivation before I come back to the SG later.

VT is, as usual, trying to misrepresent the discussion. That's because he's an idiot trying to play at being clever.

ETA: Asking people why they vote is a pointless pursuit. Most people either don't know or lie about it.

^^^ verge of tears

[Guest JTS98]

10 minutes ago, virginton said:

It really won't be. Your thesis on why the SNP would obviously need a roaring economy to keep power was a great laugh though: what with them having first gained power just months before the biggest financial crash in nearly 80 years - that took down two of the main 'Scottish' banks with it - only to then, err, secure a smashing and unprecedented majority in 2011 anyway. And with a fighting chance of securing a similar result despite the economy tanking by nearly 20% earlier this year as well.  

It turns out then that the 'stupid' in the 'it's the economy, stupid' backroom slogan now refers to the two-bob Nate Silvers like yourself who actually still believe it. 

Intriguing. It's a toss-up between 'still hasn't read past point 2 in the post he's referring to' and 'has done, but has hit too much of a beamer to back down.'

I think I'm going for the second option.

He's the Richard Littlejohn of the forum. Can write a paragraph and occasionally use bullet points effectively enough to impress the less intellectually capable posters on the site. But when you scratch the surface he's actually incapable of coherent thought, wildly inconsistent, frequently ill-informed, and, as this exchange demonstrates, allows his stalkerish dislike of certain posters to make him jump in with both feet before reading what he's trying to criticise, ultimately making an arse of himself. Again.

I think the phrase is, 'Swing and a miss, champ'.

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

 

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Intriguing. It's a toss-up between 'still hasn't read past point 2 in the post he's referring to' and 'has done, but has hit too much of a beamer to back down.'

I think I'm going for the second option.

He's the Richard Littlejohn of the forum. Can write a paragraph and occasionally use bullet points effectively enough to impress the less intellectually capable posters on the site. But when you scratch the surface he's actually incapable of coherent thought, wildly inconsistent, frequently ill-informed, and, as this exchange demonstrates, allows his stalkerish dislike of certain posters to make him jump in with both feet before reading what he's trying to criticise, ultimately making an arse of himself. Again.

I think the phrase is, 'Swing and a miss, champ'.

Accepting points 1 and 2 form the key premise to your subsequent ramble about why the government would obviously want businesses and the economy to return to normal ASAP; unfortunately, those have been proven to be utter bollocks though. The rest of your mewlings can therefore be safely filed in the bin where they belong, which is actually a pretty good default setting for the rest of your 'contributions' to the forum.

Gutted for you.