Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Jambomo]

4 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The take from the medical boffins now seems to be we are not out the woods without the ability to stop transmission and infection despite the vaccine massively reducing serious symptoms. I'm not grasping this either as surely without serious symptoms it's not the issue it is now and just becomes a heavy cold / flu type infection.

My hope is this is a "tactic" for the rollout period in an attempt to prevent those vaccinated going back to normal behaviour before all the vulnerable have been dosed.
 

I can understand them having a certain time of needing to know it works. In terms of lessening symptoms, especially with the possibility of long Covid in a lot of people being a potential issue. 

Like you though, I don’t see why we would continue with a strict or semi-strict lockdown if it works and symptoms are not severe. 

I’m far from thinking that society and the economy are more important than peoples lives but they aren’t unimportant, things do need to try and be up and running again as soon as they can be.

[btb]

Just now, 101 said:

I don't get why we wouldn't accept some level of death is regrettable but acceptable like we do for a whole range of things. I would say we need to get below normal hospitalisation and death rate of a flu season. This will obviously happen in the summer. But if we don't where do we stop? 

There were 428 Aids related deaths in 2017 and yet what in real terms do we do about it, very little. Encourage condoms and people to take PrEP, which isn't available widely in N.I or Eng. 

Hopefully with the combination of lockdown (lite), vaccination and the better weather due in spring we will be able to work out some sort of exit strategy by the summer 

[s_dog]

17 hours ago, WATTOO said:

Personally, I just wish our politicians would put their differences to the side and work together for a common goal, that being the good of the entire population. It doesn't matter whether it's at UK level or Scottish level or even which party is involved, it's basically all the same sniping to try and score cheap political points and personally I'm sick of it.

Khan as an example is shouting about the situation in London, yet he's the very one who was putting pressure on the Gov to open everything up !!

Yes, it's hard to please everyone but in times of national emergencies I think they all need to rise above political showcasing and work together, as the constant hypocritical sniping is helping nobody at all.

Exactly this, although it feels like its a total pie-in-the-sky wish to have. The whole problem is that even when there are intensive care units that are almost on their knees in some parts of the country, when there are some hospitals (I think Belfast & Wales as well as in South East of England) that have cancelled necessary cancer operations, we are still getting people complaining about lockdowns, and the economy, etc.

 

15 hours ago, No_Problemo said:

https://www.newstatesman.com/science-tech/coronavirus/2021/01/devi-sridhar-uk-needs-zero-covid-strategy-prevent-endless-lockdowns
 

Genuinely struggling to get my head round this from Sridhar. 

Reading between the lines, lockdown until summer and then gradually ease but allowing no foreign travel whatsoever. 
 

1) What is her end game, do we just go on like that for eternity. 
2) She also mentions not having another winter like this one. Why would we if the vulnerable population are vaccinated. (Yes, we might need yearly vaccines in terms of new strains
3) Surely in her vision there will be endless lockdowns as every time there are flare ups there will be local lockdowns. 

 

59 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

Bauld on BBC this morning heading in the same direction now. Vaccination can only see measures relaxed if and when we discover that the vaccine prevents infection and thus spread. If it doesn't she says SD, reduced contacts, no foreign unnecessary travel and face coverings need to remain until we develop something that prevents transmission.

The interviewer should have said there and then what's the point then but didn't. It seems the direction of travel is heading in the exact opposite direction from the initial line of get the vulnerable vaccinated and then measures can be reduced. Even the new Bozo catch phrase is ominous to the vaccinated "your mild cough could be the next person's death" or words to that effect.

And I don't understand how you can't see the logic in what these two are saying? They are looking at the likes of Australia and that's the end game, certainly in comparison to the crazy year we've had in the UK. It would mean holidays anywhere other than Scotland are possibly on hold until enough people are vaccinated everywhere, or else your holidays have to be followed by quarantine, but everything else is more normal.

If you can get the numbers low enough in the first place, local lockdowns straight away with very strong track & trace, and people paid to stay at home to isolate, that'll keep the numbers low enough so that we don't need the same restrictions in our everyday life. And as long as we don't import cases from abroad by restricting foreign travel, or perhaps letting people go abroad for one week and use the second week of holiday to quarantine when they return, then that'll keep the cases to a minimum.

In July in Scotland, if people hadn't went away on holiday to England & Spain where the cases were much higher, our numbers were so low that tightly controlling travel in and out of Scotland could have resulted in things staying the way they were in the summer. Instead, a huge proportion of our cases were linked back to these areas, the numbers grew and we ended up with the tiered lockdowns. The virus has had the chance to mutate to a more transmissible strain as it was always fairly high in parts of England and now we've ended up back in complete lockdown because of it. 

Hoping the vaccine will stop enough people getting seriously ill & dying, but without knowing it prevents transmission will always keep the virus circulating, and there is the danger we'll likely end up with this continual cycle of restrictions and lockdowns.  If we also try to drive the numbers so low at the same time, maybe there is the chance to have much less restrictions and only ever small local lockdowns for a couple of weeks. 

 

[Thereisalight..]

2 hours ago, Steven W said:

Spot on.

How can we ever get back to normal with what she proposes. I assume even Devi herself has a desire to get back to normal at some point in time.

Somewhere along the line we'll need to test the water, and just see what happens. If the virus, even with a large proportion of the population vaccinated were to flare up again, we'd just need to react accordingly. She seemingly proposes never dipping as much as toe in to the water.

Devi probably doesn’t want normality as that would mean there would be no need for her and the sanctimonious p***k Leitch to be on the TV/Radio every other day. 

[TheScarf]

Zero Covid ffs. How on earth is that possible? 

[Guest]

A curfew is an utter nonsense tbh. 
 
Achieves nothing and ultimately just jams people into shops etc in a shorter time period. 
 
You then have your key workers (dependent on shifts) potentially coming home from work and not being able to leave the house. 

I much prefer to do my shopping later at night as there is no dithering oldies or families of 10 in the shop.

Also walk the dog later at night if shes misbehaving which wont be allowed now.

[Thereisalight..]

I don’t know if anybody read the story about the two young women from Leicestershire who were finned by a mob heavy police force. They drove 5 miles in their own cars to go a socially distanced walk in a quite area. They stayed 2 metres apart and were confronted by a police van and 2 cars. The women had coffee cups they’d brought from home, they were told this was classed as a “picnic” (despite the fact they weren’t sitting down drinking them) and fined £200 each. If you think this is acceptable then you’re part of the problem. 

[TheScarf]

Just now, Empty It said:

I much prefer to do my shopping later at night as there is no dithering oldies or families of 10 in the shop.

Also walk the dog later at night if shes misbehaving which wont be allowed now.
 

Yep, shopping around 10 is something I've seen me to before for the above, and the nightshift are on so the shelves are fuller. 

[Steven W]

5 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

Devi probably doesn’t want normality as that would mean there would be no need for her and the sanctimonious p***k Leitch to be on the TV/Radio every other day. 

It's a nice thought, but in reality I'd expect that in truth Sridhar would like to go out for a meal, a concert etc the same as the rest of us.

What I don't understand is she seems to advocate being in this state of paralysis for an undetermined amount of time. We've been at this nigh on a year now, and the long term gameplan is now needing widely discussed.

[Thereisalight..]

3 minutes ago, Steven W said:

It's a nice thought, but in reality I'd expect that in truth Sridhar would like to go out for a meal, a concert etc the same as the rest of us.

What I don't understand is she seems to advocate being in this state of paralysis for an undetermined amount of time. We've been at this nigh on a year now, and the long term gameplan is now needing widely discussed.

People need to start questioning the long term gameplan. That will never happen when the MSM is filled with sycophants blinding agreeing with every decision being made 

[Detournement]

7 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Zero Covid ffs. How on earth is that possible? 

It's not. 

We are going to be under restrictions for a long, long time. 

[Billy Jean King]

And I don't understand how you can't see the logic in what these two are saying? They are looking at the likes of Australia and that's the end game, certainly in comparison to the crazy year we've had in the UK. It would mean holidays anywhere other than Scotland are possibly on hold until enough people are vaccinated everywhere, or else your holidays have to be followed by quarantine, but everything else is more normal.
If you can get the numbers low enough in the first place, local lockdowns straight away with very strong track & trace, and people paid to stay at home to isolate, that'll keep the numbers low enough so that we don't need the same restrictions in our everyday life. And as long as we don't import cases from abroad by restricting foreign travel, or perhaps letting people go abroad for one week and use the second week of holiday to quarantine when they return, then that'll keep the cases to a minimum.
In July in Scotland, if people hadn't went away on holiday to England & Spain where the cases were much higher, our numbers were so low that tightly controlling travel in and out of Scotland could have resulted in things staying the way they were in the summer. Instead, a huge proportion of our cases were linked back to these areas, the numbers grew and we ended up with the tiered lockdowns. The virus has had the chance to mutate to a more transmissible strain as it was always fairly high in parts of England and now we've ended up back in complete lockdown because of it. 
Hoping the vaccine will stop enough people getting seriously ill & dying, but without knowing it prevents transmission will always keep the virus circulating, and there is the danger we'll likely end up with this continual cycle of restrictions and lockdowns.  If we also try to drive the numbers so low at the same time, maybe there is the chance to have much less restrictions and only ever small local lockdowns for a couple of weeks. 
 

Your focusing too much on holidays imo. Talk of SD, masks and restrictions in contact after the vulnerable are vaccinated it simply shite, not needed assuming that vaccines work as stated .

[Jambomo]

28 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Zero Covid ffs. How on earth is that possible? 

In the short term I don’t think that it is. Long term perhaps they are thinking of it more like measles etc where vaccination etc mean it’s more or less gone (till the anti-vaxxers showed up). 

[Billy Jean King]

I don’t know if anybody read the story about the two young women from Leicestershire who were finned by a mob heavy police force. They drove 5 miles in their own cars to go a socially distanced walk in a quite area. They stayed 2 metres apart and were confronted by a police van and 2 cars. The women had coffee cups they’d brought from home, they were told this was classed as a “picnic” (despite the fact they weren’t sitting down drinking them) and fined £200 each. If you think this is acceptable then you’re part of the problem. 

The 5 mins was a drive from their county Leicestershire into Derbyshire. That seems to be the issue. It was pointed out in a fairly balanced BBC article by an ex Ch Constable that had they driven within their LA it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Derbyshire police publicly stated that the beauty spot targeted by their officers had seen overflowing car parks and tons of people travelling into the spot in the county to walk and that wasn't allowed. They targeted specifically cars arriving from outwith Derbyshire. Not sure what's too wrong in that. Similar to police did here in areas like the Trossachs and Loch lomond in the summer.

[No_Problemo]

1 hour ago, s_dog said:

Exactly this, although it feels like its a total pie-in-the-sky wish to have. The whole problem is that even when there are intensive care units that are almost on their knees in some parts of the country, when there are some hospitals (I think Belfast & Wales as well as in South East of England) that have cancelled necessary cancer operations, we are still getting people complaining about lockdowns, and the economy, etc.

 

 

And I don't understand how you can't see the logic in what these two are saying? They are looking at the likes of Australia and that's the end game, certainly in comparison to the crazy year we've had in the UK. It would mean holidays anywhere other than Scotland are possibly on hold until enough people are vaccinated everywhere, or else your holidays have to be followed by quarantine, but everything else is more normal.

If you can get the numbers low enough in the first place, local lockdowns straight away with very strong track & trace, and people paid to stay at home to isolate, that'll keep the numbers low enough so that we don't need the same restrictions in our everyday life. And as long as we don't import cases from abroad by restricting foreign travel, or perhaps letting people go abroad for one week and use the second week of holiday to quarantine when they return, then that'll keep the cases to a minimum.

In July in Scotland, if people hadn't went away on holiday to England & Spain where the cases were much higher, our numbers were so low that tightly controlling travel in and out of Scotland could have resulted in things staying the way they were in the summer. Instead, a huge proportion of our cases were linked back to these areas, the numbers grew and we ended up with the tiered lockdowns. The virus has had the chance to mutate to a more transmissible strain as it was always fairly high in parts of England and now we've ended up back in complete lockdown because of it. 

Hoping the vaccine will stop enough people getting seriously ill & dying, but without knowing it prevents transmission will always keep the virus circulating, and there is the danger we'll likely end up with this continual cycle of restrictions and lockdowns.  If we also try to drive the numbers so low at the same time, maybe there is the chance to have much less restrictions and only ever small local lockdowns for a couple of weeks. 

 

Australia would be the end game if we didn’t have a vaccine, which we do. 
 

Your solution is that we continue to have lockdowns when a few cases pop up, despite the fact all vulnerable people will have been vaccinated. 
 

Why would there be a continual cycle of restrictions if no one is dying from COVID. What difference does transmission make if no one can get seriously ill from it. 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I disagree with a lot you say on this thread but that story is completely nuts and gives the lie to the suggestion that all that's needed is 'tougher enforcement' of the rules - the problem with giving the police sweeping powers is that they'll wind up doing crazy stuff like this. It's a bit similar to that story we saw earlier in the pandemic when a police force (was it in Wales?) stated they'd be inspecting people's trolleys at the supermarket. 

This is clearly unacceptable but I would hope it’s just a handful of jobsworth officers acting like this as they really need the public onside for this long haul

Alot of people get quite nervous when being dealt with by the police and reading the story it seems that is exactly what’s happened here.

But the important to highlight that they hadn’t broken the law however by accepting a fixed penalty you are admitting the offence.

Remember you do not have to accept a fixed penalty! If you are sure you haven’t broken the law refuse it, the officer will then have to charge you ( you won’t be arrested for something pissy like that , it’s done on the spot) send any evidence of criminality- (in this case none because it’s not against the law to drive short distance for exercise) to the procurator fiscal who will have to decide whether to start proceedings or dismiss the case , no evidence =no case
Or, more likely they will just give you a verbal ticking off and leave you alone.
It’s not unreasonable behaviour to expect the police to do their job properly

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, Detournement said:

It's not. 

We are going to be under restrictions for a long, long time. 

Like what happened in 1918 with the Spanish flu? It all depends on how long immunity lasts after people have had it or been vaccinated. Nobody knows for sure yet on that but saw a study yesterday that suggested it was still holding up strong in New York after eight months.

[Thereisalight..]

8 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

The 5 mins was a drive from their county Leicestershire into Derbyshire. That seems to be the issue. It was pointed out in a fairly balanced BBC article by an ex Ch Constable that had they driven within their LA it probably wouldn't have been an issue.

Derbyshire police publicly stated that the beauty spot targeted by their officers had seen overflowing car parks and tons of people travelling into the spot in the county to walk and that wasn't allowed. They targeted specifically cars arriving from outwith Derbyshire. Not sure what's too wrong in that. Similar to police did here in areas like the Trossachs and Loch lomond in the summer.

Obviously English rules are different but here we can drive up to 5 miles outwith the LA for excercise. I don’t see that as an issue. It wasn’t like they were going shopping or anything indoors, it was a reservoir they were at, not the fcking January sales at Tesco. When the ladies went it was clearly not overflowing as they stated they even parked 2 car spaces away from one another and there was hardly anyone else there. I just find it madness and a waste of police resources 

[Billy Jean King]

This is clearly unacceptable but I would hope it’s just a handful of jobsworth officers acting like this as they really need the public onside for this long haul

Alot of people get quite nervous when being dealt with by the police and reading the story it seems that is exactly what’s happened here.

But the important to highlight that they hadn’t broken the law however by accepting a fixed penalty you are admitting the offence.

Remember you do not have to accept a fixed penalty! If you are sure you haven’t broken the law refuse it, the officer will then have to charge you ( you won’t be arrested for something pissy like that , it’s done on the spot) send any evidence of criminality- (in this case none because it’s not against the law to drive short distance for exercise) to the procurator fiscal who will have to decide whether to start proceedings or dismiss the case , no evidence =no case
Or, more likely they will just give you a verbal ticking off and leave you alone.
It’s not unreasonable behaviour to expect the police to do their job properly

The legislation is too vague "local area" it's worded as in England so totally open to interpretation by authorities and public alike. Derbyshire police interpreted that as Derbyshire ie their area of policing but whether that would stand up in law or mot no one knows. Lines need to be drawn somewhere but as it stands neither public or police know where they stand hence situations like this. Thankfully we tend not to police that way up here.

[Billy Jean King]

Obviously English rules are different but here we can drive up to 5 miles outwith the LA for excercise. I don’t see that as an issue. It wasn’t like they were going shopping or anything indoors, it was a reservoir they were at, not the fcking January sales at Tesco. When the ladies went it was clearly not overflowing as they stated they even parked 2 car spaces away from one another and there was hardly anyone else there. I just find it madness and a waste of police resources 

The police clearly targeted an area that had caused concern in the past. As I say our laws are better defined as you correctly quote above. Heavy handed yes but left open to interpretation none the less. A full car park could easily become a source of infection especially with this new strain