Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’ve never been one to think that history is shaped purely by individuals, but on occasion that does happen.

Three I can think of who changed/are changing history are Hitler, Gandhi and Trump.  I think the circumstances that put them in place were always going to be there but with a different figure there would have been/would be a different outcome.

It's incredibly frustrating when discussions go like this 'You think A, therefore you must think B is false'.

I don't for one minute think that individuals and their actions cannot shape history or change outcomes.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

30 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

You're giving mlk way too much credit.

Yes he was an important factor but your conclusion is oversimplistic.

I'm more of an atheistic activist, in all honesty. Taking King out of it, then:

If there had not been some figure - a "face" - acceptable as a spokesman to some extent to those in power, the movement would have coalesced around, and been driven by, figures whose respect for society's rules was not as developed, if indeed it iexisted at all.

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, Gordon EF said:

It's incredibly frustrating when discussions go like this 'You think A, therefore you must think B is false'.

I don't for one minute think that individuals and their actions cannot shape history or change outcomes.

It’s good that we’re agreeing then.

[NotThePars]

56 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Him and his wife agreed 'that we needed to give each other some space'.

Brilliant. Read between the lines there and either his marriage is fucked, or he's decided that that excuse might get him off.

I'm sure Palmer announced she was divorcing him on her blog unless I'm confusing them with someone else.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by NotThePars

[WhiteRoseKillie]

33 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you seriously suggesting that there was no collective effort or responsibility whatsoever and that one man convinced an entire country who did not want Civil Rights, to accept them?

Or, was it more likely that society had been moving that way for a long time and MLK happened to be an exceptional character who came along at the right time to get it over the line?

Do you also think that everything that happens in the history of countries is down to the Kings, Queens and Emperors at the time?

The achievement of King, and many other charismatic leaders, lay not in convincing society to change, but in convincing those desirous of change of the correct path to take in order to achieve that change. There were plenty of other influential characters floating around trying to get the movement behind them.  Some of these would have been disastous, not only for the movement, but for the stability of the USA.  Imagine if all those who turned out for King in Washington had been following Robert Williams?

[Gordon EF]

10 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

The achievement of King, and many other charismatic leaders, lay not in convincing society to change, but in convincing those desirous of change of the correct path to take in order to achieve that change. There were plenty of other influential characters floating around trying to get the movement behind them.  Some of these would have been disastous, not only for the movement, but for the stability of the USA.  Imagine if all those who turned out for King in Washington had been following Robert Williams?

I have no idea what you're trying to argue or what you think I am to be honest.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

21 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

You told us you were essential staff so you already know precisely why you MUST be at work. It's not about safety. It's about necessity.

You also know why you are not being allowed to see your relatives. It's because you'll risk passing the disease onto them when it's not essential that you meet them at the moment.

I would attempt an answer to the second half but I have no clue what you mean by a Rosette.

 

No, I said that I was classed as essential. I like to think I'm doing an important job but, if all the guidelines and advice handed down from the centre were followed, there should be no need for me to be in the Jail at the moment. Along with many other non-op staff, I am being held in readiness to censor mail, stir curry, and carry out all sorts of non-op tasks when the expected armageddon decimates the numbers on duty. This hasn't happened and, I'm glad to say, the vast majority of staff are sensible enough to ensure that it won't. An unsung but important achievement. That our nick has had a couple of staff cases and a total of five (no fatalities) amongst the clientele, says that our biggest protection (the Wall) has done a good job. So far.

So, the job's not essential. Important? Arguable, but on balance, yes.

Rosette No. 2 has pre-existing MH issues, and is seriously struggling with physical health issues as well, while doing her best to home-school her daughter and keep both of them occupied throughout this. She is regularly in tears on the phone, over facetime, etc.

So meeting her is not essential, but important? With a record like hers, it could develop into a life or death situation. Which, all political and semantic argumens aside, absolutely is essential.

Rosettes? My four daughters.

[Honest_Man#1]

[Donathan]

My assumption is that tomorrow, sturgeon will announce that the lockdown continues in its current format until June 1st, a nice round number to force R effective lower. Hopefully we'll see some concrete timelines for TTI implementation.
Schools won't be back until August, then.
I noticed previously some chat about opening up social contacts in a kind of 'bubble' I.e. two or three households able to interact but strictly only those households together. Given Sturgeon's chat last week about balancing the needs of the economy and allowing folk to see their relatives, I suspect that might be a first step goer.
After that it's speculation. Selfishly, getting private nurseries open again is a priority and in fairness, its probably a requirement to opening the economy back up effectively without over exposing older grandparents. Of the latter, I think it would make sense for them to shelter longer but discriminating on those grounds might make good sense medically but is probably legally ineforcable. That will come down to personal responsibility and individual caution.
Opening up manufacturing and tech sector offices should be a relatively painless venture. I suspect there will still be a lot of working from home to ease social distancing in office spaces.
Mandatory face coverings for the moment in public transport makes perfect sense, more so than trying to juggle quarter loaded transport.
The hospitality sector will continue on ice with no definite timelines would be my guess, with a review at the end of June to see if R has been kept low enough to think about bringing those back.

How do they even begin to police “bubbles”?

Is there an app where you need to register which households are in your bubble, so that you can be fined if caught visiting other ones?

IMO, the bubble system is a not so subtle way of allowing socialising whilst still being seen to be enforcing a “lockdown”. The powers that be know that a bubble system is totally unenforceable and it’s just a way of trying to appease both sides.

[Jacksgranda]

29 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

You told us you were essential staff so you already know precisely why you MUST be at work. It's not about safety. It's about necessity.

You also know why you are not being allowed to see your relatives. It's because you'll risk passing the disease onto them when it's not essential that you meet them at the moment.

I would attempt an answer to the second half but I have no clue what you mean by a Rosette.

 

That's his daughters - WhiteRoseKillie - Rosette, get it? Fairly obvious, I would have thought.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

51 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I’ve never been one to think that history is shaped purely by individuals, but on occasion that does happen.

Three I can think of who changed/are changing history are Hitler, Gandhi and Trump.  I think the circumstances that put them in place were always going to be there but with a different figure there would have been/would be a different outcome.

That's exactly what I was trying to get across. Vast social change  will always happen - the figure at the front of the movement has a massive influence on the path taken.

(Thanks for taking the Godwin bullet, auld fella!)

Edited May 18, 2020 by WhiteRoseKillie

[Paco]

I noticed previously some chat about opening up social contacts in a kind of 'bubble' I.e. two or three households able to interact but strictly only those households together. Given Sturgeon's chat last week about balancing the needs of the economy and allowing folk to see their relatives, I suspect that might be a first step goer.

Jason Leitch was on Sportsound on Saturday saying the ‘bubble’ is still being discussed which is encouraging to me, I feared we might just follow the English model of see your mum in a park but stay 2m away for the sake of ease. I much prefer the idea of being able to interact normally with close family while social distancing from everyone else.

June 1st also seems likely to me as the beginning of this. Some small changes to be announced to keep us relatively happy until then, e.g. solo golf, outdoor tennis and fishing, garden centres etc as trailed in the Times yesterday. That way Sturgeon can spin it as an ‘unlocking’ now with a bigger reward than England if we just mostly stay at home until June 1st. It also gives very convenient and much needed time for the Scottish Government to get their act together and have TTI ready for the actual big moves out of lockdown.

[ICTChris]

I think putting Trump next to Hitler and Gandhi is a bit much. What has he done that’s comparable to them?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, ICTChris said:

I think putting Trump next to Hitler and Gandhi is a bit much. What has he done that’s comparable to them?

Shagged his daughter?

[Todd_is_God]

2 deaths & 57 cases in Scotland in last 24 hours

[WhiteRoseKillie]

27 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Those 3 didn't change history on their own.

History was changed because they had a vast swathe of civilians prepared to put their plans into action.

All who participated are responsible for the changes.

The biggest changes in our way of life have always come from scientists and engineers and the mathematicians who build the framework on which they all operate. Most of those people are unknown and died in relative poverty.

Everyone else including medical people are able to do their jobs only off the back of those changes.

 

Oaksoft's list of top Scientists and Engineers:

Khans  K & G.

Pol Pot

Hernan Cortes

Hitler, obvs.

Theoneste bagosora

Donald Trump

Nelson Mandela

Boris Johnson

Many. many Popes, very often while excommunicating any scientists or engineers who were being listened to.

George Washington.

 

 

 

 

 

[ICTChris]

Shagged his daughter?

Gandhi and Hitler didn’t have any daughters so we’ll never know if they would’ve shagged them.

[Detournement]

34 minutes ago, renton said:

My assumption is that tomorrow, sturgeon will announce that the lockdown continues in its current format until June 1st, a nice round number to force R effective lower. Hopefully we'll see some concrete timelines for TTI implementation.

Schools won't be back until August, then.

I noticed previously some chat about opening up social contacts in a kind of 'bubble' I.e. two or three households able to interact but strictly only those households together. Given Sturgeon's chat last week about balancing the needs of the economy and allowing folk to see their relatives, I suspect that might be a first step goer.

After that it's speculation. Selfishly, getting private nurseries open again is a priority and in fairness, its probably a requirement to opening the economy back up effectively without over exposing older grandparents. Of the latter, I think it would make sense for them to shelter longer but discriminating on those grounds might make good sense medically but is probably legally ineforcable. That will come down to personal responsibility and individual caution.

Opening up manufacturing and tech sector offices should be a relatively painless venture. I suspect there will still be a lot of working from home to ease social distancing in office spaces.

Mandatory face coverings for the moment in public transport makes perfect sense, more so than trying to juggle quarter loaded transport.

The hospitality sector will continue on ice with no definite timelines would be my guess, with a review at the end of June to see if R has been kept low enough to think about bringing those back.

Nothing to disagree with here but get gyms and barbers open ASAP!

[WhiteRoseKillie]

35 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I think you could do with a bit of fresh air and a cup of tea TBH.

I could do with a lot fewer IARJ arseholes deciding that, because they have evaluated their personal risk as slight, the entire population should be put at risk so that we an all go for a pint before the football.

I could also do without people with imaginary businesses claiming that there's not the slightest skewing of lockdown relaxation to what's best for the economy rather than what's best for the people.

[renton]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Nothing to disagree with here but get gyms and barbers open ASAP!

Yeah, I've been holding off getting the clippers out these past 8 weeks. If Sturgeon comes out and says barbers are another couple of weeks away, well and good. If it's another month or two away....