Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[Michael W]

"Other countries do it" isn't a reason for us to follow blindly. If it is, I assume we can just introduce voter ID and routinely arm the police and that'll be just fine? I don't advocate these policies and i doubt you'll see much support from them in this thread either, but much of Europe does this, so we shouldn't be allowed to complain about it if it happens, right? It's an attempt at shutting down debate and/or criticism of the governing party and nothing else. Every single restriction taken should be justified.  

It shouldn't also need to be said that the UK isn't France, France isn't Portugal, Portugal isn't Germany and so on. They are all different and one size fits all approaches won't work. In France for example, there are more people in hospital than there are in the UK despite the UK running a significantly higher case load over the last few months. Only in the last couple of days has France overtaken in terms of daily numbers. Measures taken there are probably therefore unnecessary in Scotland, so blindly copying it is bad policy. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Michael W

[Elixir]

 

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

 There's little doubt however, that it's that agenda which has dictated the response in England, rather than a better reading of the data.

 

Erm no, there absolutely is substantial doubt about this. If the Cabinet were convinced by compelling data, they'd have backed restrictions to avoid the worse political fallout of 'the NHS being overwhelmed' on their watch. With the exception of Javid - covering his own back as Health Minister - they were not convinced that this would come to pass. 

That is the context in which they decided to go with the tide of backbench sentiment, rather than against it at almost every previous episode of this pandemic. Political calculation only prevails when the underlying data is so obviously warped as to be meaningless. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by vikingTON

[Bairnardo]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

Erm no, there absolutely is substantial doubt about this. If the Cabinet were convinced by compelling data, they'd have backed restrictions to avoid the worse political fallout of 'the NHS being overwhelmed' on their watch. With the exception of Javid - covering his own back as Health Minister - they were not convinced that this would come to pass. 

That is the context in which they decided to go with the tide of backbench sentiment, rather than against it at almost every previous episode of this pandemic. Political calculation only prevails when the underlying data is so obviously warped as to be meaningless. 

Yeah, this "backbench rebellion" whislt problematic for Boris Johnson, seems to be getting banded about as objective fact that its the reason for England staying the course. 

England have less onus to justify staying the course than we do for applying further restrictions and in that regard, scotgov have, and continue to spectacularly fail to the point where its beginning to appear to most that failure to roll back these measures is purely a political face saving exercise. 

[vikingTON]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/30/lateral-flow-tests-to-be-constrained-over-next-two-weeks-warns-sajid-javid

Hopefully someone in authority will smack down the world's shittest dentist then, for shrieking at perfectly healthy people to get tested before ever leaving their house and massively squandering scarce public health resources in the process. 

Here's how a logical system should work:

1) If you are a household/close contact, you must take a negative LFT to release before the end of isolation. 

2) If you have generic cold-like symptoms, you should consider taking a LFT to check if it's the shan variant or not.

3) If you're perfectly well, you should take no LFTs at all and reserve them for cases of genuine need.

Chasing asymptomatic infection across the entire population is utter folly. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by vikingTON

[DeeTillEhDeh]

22 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

34 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

One could argue that it's Westminster who is the outlier compared to the other 3 nations.

I've said elsewhere that the reason for the differences in the UK is more to do with the cautionary nature of the Executives of the 3 nations combined with a complete lack of opposition.

At the end of the day the SNP are still a minority administration - the Greens, SLab and Scottish Tories are not providing any opposition or accountability. If you look at Wales it's the same - the only exception for the 3 nations seems to be when the DUP opposed certification - but they too have largely let other measures through unopposed. There is also an obligation for the elected members of the ruling parties to provide constructive accountability - but again it seems non-existent, either due to fear of rocking the boat or, in the case of the SNP, that they are not allowed to.

I get that when you join a political party there is an expectation to follow the party line - however, it shouldn't mean that genuine concerns or constructive criticism just doesn't see the light of day.

It's not healthy for democracy at all.

Not really, you can argue about the why all you want, but what Westminster have said is that the data doesnt support restrictions. That is largely, to any right thinking person, the correct attitude. The normalising of lobbing social restrictions into law at the drop of a hat is a joke, these things should absolutely be supported by robust data. Scotgov deviated from a course that was showing no signs of being problematic so that makes them the outlier.

I'm not disagreeing with this - at a Scottish level there seems to be zero discussion about the validity of restrictions - not within Scotgov itself (compared to the UK cabinet where there seems to have been disagreements aired) nor from the opposition parties.  Instead of shite questions about the logistics of the restrictions we really need to have Ross, Cole-Hamilton and Sarwar questioning the actual need for them.  There also serious questions that need to be asked about the Greens in all of this - essentially they are just voting fodder for the Scottish Executive - they need to be playing a far more active part in discussions over restrictions.

[Granny Danger]

32 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Some fair points, but it's problematic to suggest we shouldn't be diverging from Westminster.  If the respective outlooks were reversed, I'd be surprised if you saw it that way (I do get the financial element when it's this way round).

You also need to factor in that even the Westminster government would probably be doing it our way if not for the backbench rebellion Johnson recently faced.  Now obviously, you can agree with the rebels on this issue without buying into their hideous, right wing, libertarian agenda wholesale.   There's little doubt however, that it's that agenda which has dictated the response in England, rather than a better reading of the data.

Admire the result if you like, but let's not pretend it was reached in a way we'd like replicated here.

Most folk on here knows what is driving Covid policy in WM but they’re not going to admit it as it doesn’t suit their narrative.

[Bairnardo]

2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Most folk on here knows what is driving Covid policy in WM but they’re not going to admit it as it doesn’t suit their narrative.

So then, just so we are clear, you think England should put further covid restrictions in place?

Can you tell us which ones, and why?

[Elixir]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/30/lateral-flow-tests-to-be-constrained-over-next-two-weeks-warns-sajid-javid

Hopefully someone in authority will smack down the world's shittest dentist then, for shrieking at perfectly healthy people to get tested before ever leaving their house and massively squandering scarce public health resources in the process. 

Here's how a logical system should work:

1) If you are a household/close contact, you must take a negative LFT to release before the end of isolation. 

2) If you have generic cold-like symptoms, you should consider taking a LFT to check if it's the shan variant or not.

3) If you're perfectly well, you should take no LFTs at all and reserve them for cases of genuine need.

Chasing asymptomatic infection across the entire population is utter folly. 

Yup. This is yet another socially constructed problem rather than a medical one - just like the ludicrous isolation rules for healthcare staff.

Another byproduct of this is the colossal plastic waste from testing (and masks), purely to indulge raging hypochondriacs. A farce.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

3 minutes ago, Elixir said:

Yup. This is yet another socially constructed problem rather than a medical one - just like the ludicrous isolation rules for healthcare staff.

Another byproduct of this is the colossal plastic waste from testing (and masks), purely to indulge raging hypochondriacs. A farce.

Genuinely - what would you suggest the rules should be regards isolation for NHS staff?

[Jacksgranda]

57 minutes ago, NUMBER 7 said:

The SNP have gone on record as saying Indy Ref 2 is on the back burner until the pandemic is under control.

To that end yes they do wish strands of the pandemic to linger on, its in a warped way it is in their best interests, as they are currently and medium term in no position to hold and hope to win said referendum, should it be allowed in the first place.

Now the truth of omicron is out the bag they would be better to produce the real numbers that say

Folks going into hospital with Omicron Covid are about 20% of the declared number in hospital that also have tested positive for Covid. 

The NHS is not over run by case numbers, but has issues with staff shortages through folks having to isolate.

The number of Covid ventilations and deaths are reducing to minuscule numbers.

Sorry We fucked up and were over cautious, then hope folks have short memories, but I’d suspect this recent fiasco won’t be forgotten 

 

 

 

 

 

It won't be forgotten but I doubt there will be enough folk to make much of a difference at the ballot box

[Elixir]

4 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Most folk on here knows what is driving Covid policy in WM but they’re not going to admit it as it doesn’t suit their narrative.

Imagine thinking it's a bad thing that there is scrutiny (and pushback) against this when even Joe Public can question the data at hand, yet the 'opposition' gives the government a blank cheque to implement whatever they want. It's not even just Tory backbenchers that are sceptical - high ranking members of the cabinet (Sunak, Truss, Kwarteng) are. Even true Labour left-wingers like Corbyn, Long-Bailey and Lewis are opposed. Regardless, there is no narrative. I couldn't give a toss how restrictions are halted or appealed, so long as they are.

[Monkey Tennis]

40 minutes ago, Michael W said:

"Other countries do it" isn't a reason for us to follow blindly. If it is, I assume we can just introduce voter ID and routinely arm the police and that'll be just fine? I don't advicate these policies ans i doubt you'll see much soppprr from them in this thread either, but much of Europe does this, so we shouldn't be allowed to complain about it if it happens, right? It's an attempt at shutting down debate and/or criticism of the governing party and nothing else. Every single restriction taken should be justified.  

It shouldn't also need to be said that the UK isn't France, France isn't Portugal, Portugal isn't Germany and so on. They are all different and one size fits all approaches won't work. In France for example, there are more people in hospital than there are in the UK despite the UK running a significantly higher case load over the last few months. Only in the last couple of days has France overtaken in terms of daily numbers. Measures taken there are probably therefore unnecessary in Scotland, so blindly copying it is bad policy. 

I don't think anyone's advocating blindly following what others are doing (except those who want us to mimic Westminster of course).

These other countries are being cited as a response to the suggestion that the Scottish decisions are only being made due to our particular political circumstances.

[Elixir]

7 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Genuinely - what would you suggest the rules should be regards isolation for NHS staff?

Stop mass testing, which evidently does nothing to prevent spread anyway. Healthcare workers with no or minimal symptoms should be free to work.

[UsedToGoToCentralPark]

Most folk on here knows what is driving Covid policy in WM but they’re not going to admit it as it doesn’t suit their narrative.

The ability to have a democratic debate where multiple points of view can be aired in public regardless of political persuasion?

[Monkey Tennis]

15 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

So then, just so we are clear, you think England should put further covid restrictions in place?

I don't think he's necessarily saying that at all.

[Bairnardo]

I don't think he's necessarily saying that at all.

Hes suggesting that the public story from Westminster, "The data does not support restrictions is a lie". I think to back that up, you have to be able to show that the data DOES support restrictions, but is being ignored and it follows on from there that the data would tell you which restrictions were required.

I dont think im being unreasonable there?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

All absolutely true.  Much of it is commendable.

 

However, as far as I'm aware, the Scottish Government hasn't actually banned football for all time.

Thanks for that, i thought they had outlawed it. Well i mean they probably would if they could. 
But behind the flippancy in your comment my post was more to do with the value of football clubs to communities being overlooked by the snp fans and importance of clubs in breaking down stigmas in mental health. 

[GTee]

Clearly one isn't enough, so we are now in the midst of TWO pandemics in the North East now. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

Don’t think it will be needed but an interesting story in the FT saying that England are considering opening up Nightingale type or field hospitals in case they are required for Omicron patients which will keep them away from mainstream hospitals. A bit like the old ID or scarlet fever hospitals.

At last, some common sense is starting to percolate through.