Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: I'm not saying clubs/fans shouldn't care. I'm merely pointing out the rampant hypocrisy in them all bleating about sporting integrity and fairness when it's clearly not what theyd be saying if they weren't affected. If Hearts were 1 point clear in 11th Budge would absolutely be right behind this. You've got Stranraer, with 2 wins all season, claiming it's a disgrace they're being relegated FFS This league season cannot be finished, theres not enough time without fucking over next season and the new TV deal, and due to prize money/contractual issues/TV contract issues, it cannot be voided. You either try and rush through some b*****dised reconstruction, apparently to last one year, while still fitting in with a pre-arranged TV deal involving 12 clubs and not 14/16, or you find the best solution. How do you want this season to end? Of course, the exact same thing almost certainly applies to you. What would your position be if St Johnstone were bottom of the league but in a salvageable position? What would all those daft Celtic bloggers be writing if the position between them and Rangers were reversed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 Just now, JTS98 said: Of course, the exact same thing almost certainly applies to you. What would your position be if St Johnstone were bottom of the league but in a salvageable position? I'm not saying it doesn't. Merely laughing at those who've suddenly become bastions of integrity for Scottish football because they're being punished for being shite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 It wasnt even that long ago Ann Budge was advocating chucking half the SPFL out and killing them as clubs, and now shes trying to claim shes voting against it to help them. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 4 hours ago, JTS98 said: It'll be interesting, obviously, to see what comes of the UEFA meeting about finishing the Champions League and Europa League and how that affects next season's tournaments, if they actually go ahead at all. There's a possibility, I'd argue likelihood, that if the UEFA tournaments for next year go ahead at all, and I'm far from convinced they will, then they will be curtailed and under a different format. Does this mean that who finishes 3rd in this season's Premiership is irrelevant from a UEFA qualification point of view? Maybe. It might be big clubs only. Does this mean that participation will be linked to the state of the virus in particular countries, meaning Motherwell may be totally excluded, or perhaps parachuted straight into some kind of smaller (and probably lucrative) group stage? In that case, are the other middling clubs happy to potentially gift Motherwell a huge sum of money that they haven't really earned access to? Or should Motherwell be compelled to share that cash? And with whom? Same applies to Celtic, obviously. Are the other clubs happy to give Celtic access to Champions League money when they haven't actually won the title? Or, perhaps next season's European money should be evenly split between all of the clubs or added to the tv distribution pot. It's hard to judge levels of 'fairness' until we know about these things. Kilmarnock, for example, might be happy to vote Motherwell into Europe but then have fucking kittens when they find out a week or so later that they've just gifted Motherwell a few million quid. That's an interesting point. If the games can't be played in time and we have to name 4 teams to play in Europe, then I'm with you on evenly splitting the European money between all teams. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said: I'm not saying it doesn't. Merely laughing at those who've suddenly become bastions of integrity for Scottish football because they're being punished for being shite. You seem to be surprised, bordering on outraged, that people are applying tribalism to football. Of course it's stupid, but you could equally argue that those who are arguing for leaving it as it stands are doing so for tribal reasons. People who don't like Hearts will argue Hearts should go down. Most people who support Hearts will probably argue that we shouldn't. I'm not overly bothered either way. But it's a bit much seeing people suggest Hearts should accept as 'fair' a punishment based on a stopping of the season at an arbitrary point. What if it had stopped another week when we weren't bottom? What if the English Premier League had been stopped last season in a week where Liverpool were top? Arguing that teams who will suffer because of this should just suck it up is silly. No team would do that, and it's arguable that none should. Why should a club be keen to accept relegation when they haven't been relegated? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, JTS98 said: It'll be interesting, obviously, to see what comes of the UEFA meeting about finishing the Champions League and Europa League and how that affects next season's tournaments, if they actually go ahead at all. There's a possibility, I'd argue likelihood, that if the UEFA tournaments for next year go ahead at all, and I'm far from convinced they will, then they will be curtailed and under a different format. Does this mean that who finishes 3rd in this season's Premiership is irrelevant from a UEFA qualification point of view? Maybe. It might be big clubs only. Does this mean that participation will be linked to the state of the virus in particular countries, meaning Motherwell may be totally excluded, or perhaps parachuted straight into some kind of smaller (and probably lucrative) group stage? In that case, are the other middling clubs happy to potentially gift Motherwell a huge sum of money that they haven't really earned access to? Or should Motherwell be compelled to share that cash? And with whom? Same applies to Celtic, obviously. Are the other clubs happy to give Celtic access to Champions League money when they haven't actually won the title? Or, perhaps next season's European money should be evenly split between all of the clubs or added to the tv distribution pot. It's hard to judge levels of 'fairness' until we know about these things. Kilmarnock, for example, might be happy to vote Motherwell into Europe but then have fucking kittens when they find out a week or so later that they've just gifted Motherwell a few million quid. Even with the current proposal, the Premiership clubs are committing to making every effort to get the season done on the park, so they will be following UEFA's guidelines in that respect. UEFA are going to require teams to be put forward for European competition if they go ahead, and the current proposal is the only sensible way to do that if the season can't be finished. Motherwell and Aberdeen have a reasonable gap over the rest and it seems unlikely the Scottish Cup is going to be done in time anyway, so I doubt the other clubs would have a massive issue with those two teams being put forward if it's impossible to finish things by UEFA's eventual cut-off. I don't see how there can be any other solution, regardless of what the final decision on the actual league placings is. The SPFL has absolutely no power to mandate next season's (or any season's) European money being split between clubs - the money goes direct from UEFA to those clubs. If they did, it would already happen every year. Edited April 9, 2020 by craigkillie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Motherwell and Aberdeen have a reasonable gap over the rest and it seems unlikely the Scottish Cup is going to be done in time anyway, so I doubt the other clubs would have a massive issue with those two teams being put forward if it's impossible to finish things by UEFA's eventual cut-off. I don't see how there can be any other solution, regardless of what the final decision on the actual league placings is. The SPFL has absolutely no power to mandate next season's (or any season's) European money being split between clubs - the money goes direct from UEFA to those clubs. If they did, it would already happen every year. I'm aware of how qualification works, but the point is that we don't know what format (if any) they'll be qualifying for. While the league can't force them to do it, I think it would be a fair trade-off and an act of good faith not beyond our clubs to agree that the other clubs will nominate those clubs to play in Europe on the understanding that any base fees for qualification for group stages will be split among the clubs. It's not impossible to do and it would be a reasonable act of give and take. These clubs haven't achieved what they are looking to be rewarded for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 I reckon three divisions of 14 would be the fairest outcome for next season but Hearts getting relegated.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Grimes Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 I honestly don’t give a f**k what happens, just enjoying Sevco & Hertz scrambling for relevance Difficult to see how European competition could even take place next season, a year off would do my club no harm, not sure about the bigger clubs Scottish Cup can get completed at the end of the year Dandy Dons, Scottish Cup Winners, December 2020 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capt_oats Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, JTS98 said: I'm aware of how qualification works, but the point is that we don't know what format (if any) they'll be qualifying for. While the league can't force them to do it, I think it would be a fair trade-off and an act of good faith not beyond our clubs to agree that the other clubs will nominate those clubs to play in Europe on the understanding that any base fees for qualification for group stages will be split among the clubs. It's not impossible to do and it would be a reasonable act of give and take. These clubs haven't achieved what they are looking to be rewarded for. Edited April 9, 2020 by capt_oats 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 hours ago, JTS98 said: What would your position be if St Johnstone were bottom of the league but in a salvageable position? They would deserve to go down, no doubts. What has happened on this planet is obviously a full scale crisis, f**k football at a time like this. I was of the opinion that finishing the season was the only way we should go. The longer it goes on, which it will for the next 6 months at least and more likely nearer a year, the less likely us finishing the season is possible. Rather than killing several clubs due to administration they all need to accept the positions as is. Hearts are bottom on merit so DESERVE to be relegated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 I feel sorry for Hearts. It would be harsh to relegate them without completing the league season. But the alternatives - waiting for months to complete fixtures, or reorganising leagues – aren't practical; and I don't think we'd even be considering them if it was Hamilton or St Johnstone in bottom place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mr Heliums said: I feel sorry for Hearts. It would be harsh to relegate them without completing the league season. But the alternatives - waiting for months to complete fixtures, or reorganising leagues – aren't practical; and I don't think we'd even be considering them if it was Hamilton or St Johnstone in bottom place. Like Random guy would let us skip that scenario.... -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 32 minutes ago, tree house tam said: Hearts are bottom on merit so DESERVE to be relegated. Capital letters don't make it true. There is simply nothing 'deserved' about a relegation you unexpectedly had shoved on you before the season finished. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JTS98 said: Capital letters don't make it true. There is simply nothing 'deserved' about a relegation you unexpectedly had shoved on you before the season finished. From now on there should be small print added to league rules. In case of global pandemic which negates the season finishing within a reasonable timescale, then league positions should be decided on a points per game played basis, Job done. Would you be happy with that? Edited April 9, 2020 by tree house tam Bit of a large sentence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, tree house tam said: From now on there should be small print added to league rules. In case of global pandemic which negates the season finishing within a reasonable timescale, then league positions should be decided on a points per game played basis, Job done. Would you be happy with that? It's not about being happy or unhappy. We are where we are. My point is that some people seem to be trying to present this as 'fair'. It is absolutely not fair to deny a team a chance to play their way out of trouble, You can't dress that up. But I accept the situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tree house tam Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, JTS98 said: It's not about being happy or unhappy. We are where we are. My point is that some people seem to be trying to present this as 'fair'. It is absolutely not fair to deny a team a chance to play their way out of trouble, You can't dress that up. But I accept the situation. Global pandemics aren't fair and yes we are where we are, Hearts are bottom and should be relegated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, tree house tam said: Global pandemics aren't fair and yes we are where we are, Hearts are bottom and should be relegated. Interesting choice of word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buddie06smfc Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 It's not about being happy or unhappy. We are where we are. My point is that some people seem to be trying to present this as 'fair'. It is absolutely not fair to deny a team a chance to play their way out of trouble, You can't dress that up. But I accept the situation.It is fair given the current situation. We have to make calls based on work done to date, calls can’t be made on what-if scenarios. The only clubs who would be treated unfairly would be those who would not be allowed to contest play-off opportunities for promotion but you’re never going to appease everyone here. Those in champions/relegation spots have played out the majority of the season and have had ample chances to play their way out of trouble. If games can not be played in a timely, safe manner then the only resolution is call the season based on points per game and end the season prematurely with a defined result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, buddie06smfc said: It is fair given the current situation. We have to make calls based on work done to date, calls can’t be made on what-if scenarios. The only clubs who would be treated unfairly would be those who would not be allowed to contest play-off opportunities for promotion but you’re never going to appease everyone here. Those in champions/relegation spots have played out the majority of the season and have had ample chances to play their way out of trouble. If games can not be played in a timely, safe manner then the only resolution is call the season based on points per game and end the season prematurely with a defined result. There's a basic logical failing there. You're saying clubs chasing promotion have had the chance to play their way up taken away from them, but you seem to not consider that clubs at the bottom should be allowed to play their way up also. The clubs in the play-off spots have had 'ample opportunity' to play their way into first. Those two issues are the same thing. I accept we might have to go down. But the notion that it is fair doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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