kdyteejay Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, johnnydun said: I am going to be honest here and say no. I don't actually advocate 'null and void', I would prefer the season to be played out to a conclusion. I think everyone would prefer the season to be played out to a conclusion. The thing is Null and void is just not going to happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 23 hours ago, Spikethedee said: I've been looking back over some of the responses to my earlier post about the best way forward is to delay the start of next season and have a shorter season if necessary. The main issues appear to be about player contracts etc. After a lot of thinking (ie "working from home"), I've got this to add: Sport is different from a lot of other fields of employment. Of course, footballers are subject to employment law and all the rights, responsibilities and protections that ensures. However, sport also exists with what, for the purposes of this post (and also because I can't be arsed looking to see if there is a proper term), I'll call "sporting laws" For example, sporting law means that you can't decide to play for another team in the middle of a season and get a transfer and then decide after a few weeks that you aren't happy there and get a transfer to a third team in the same season. Of course, in the "real world" you can decide to work for McDonalds one week, leave and start and Burger King the next week and then leave and go to KFC the week after. So, in that vein, FIFA/UEFA could issue a sporting law that the current season will last until whatever date is practical to play out the season when the lockdown ends. To keep things simple, I'll suppose that date is 30th September (obviously, any date can be substituted in here). Therefore, all current contracts that are due to end this season (whether that be a set date or not in any individual contract) will be open to be extended until 30th September. The transfer window will remain closed until 1st October. Any player that doesn't wish to extend his contract doesn't have to do so, but, with the window closed, players would have no other teams to play for. If a club doesn't want to extend the contract, the player would become a free agent and be able to sign for another club as per the current set-up if you are without a club at the end of a transfer window. Therefore, any player would, at the worst, be on his current contract for a few months extra, with no loss of money. If his club is unable, or unwilling, to keep him on, he would be able to sign for anyone else, just as he would have been at the end of a regular season. Players would be covered under employment law, as they would either be in the same position as just now, or able to sign a new contract with another team, or barred under sporting law from playing for another team just because they didn't want to stay where they are, as under the current system with transfer windows and the 2 c;ubs per season rule. Please pick the holes in this as you normally would... The problems with this are myriad, Spikethestupid. 1. Sport really isn't different from other fields of employment. In plenty other walks of life there are restrictions on the type of work you can do for a subsequent employer because of the terms on which you were contracted by your predecessors. Non-compete clauses, laws on preventing conflicts of interest etc. are rife. 2. You are confusing employment contracts with player registration. Teams can employ who they like, but they can't play them if another team still holds their registration. This isn't special to sport, just the details of performance of contractual duties. FIFA and UEFA can relax or tighten their own player registration laws but they are not in charge of the law of contract in any country nor are they in charge of employment law generally in the EU and the UK. 3. The issue isn't that players might sign for other teams if they are still in contract. It is that (a) they might refuse to sign a contract extension without significantly improved playing terms by holding clubs hostage during a time when they can't sign replacements or that (b) the Club cannot afford to offer wages on acceptable terms, or even their existing terms, over the summer. Lots of Clubs only sign most of their squad from July or August to May, and only contract higher value or long-term desirable players over summers. Basically this is a terrible idea totally at odds with football finance, the reality of employment law, or any semblance of sporting fairness and you should f**k off, but stay at home. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, Granny Danger said: Also I don’t think the furloughing thing will cover all employees, only those who would have lost there jobs had they not been furloughed. Can’t see that being applied to players on contracts. Eh? It couldnt be more obviously applicable to footballers if it tried. Your own club (& many others, including mine) have confirmed the playing staff are furloughed. All employees have contracts, not just players. The only thing different about players is they have a fixed end date. Its still possible to make players redundant as clubs usually do when they go into admin. Edited April 9, 2020 by Skyline Drifter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 The EFL plan: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52230105 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said: You'd be surprised. They've already gone through the process of doing it for employees FWIW. You genuinely believe a Conservative government is paying out millions of pounds to businesses and not expecting it back at some point? Genuinely? The furlough scheme does NOT need paid back. Though in the long term higher taxes on business are inevitable to make the books balance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: The money being released isn't the issue. You've totally misunderstood. The clubs will have budgeted for that money for this season, meaning up to when it would have normally ended. What funds will they be using to sign players in August? Or to pay the ones still under contract? If clubs are playing again then they have to start paying everyone again in full. Almost all income streams will not be there. You might suggest season ticket sales, but many fans won't buy a ticket not knowing when the new season will begin, what format it will take, what league they'll be in etc. Sponsors will be reluctant as well for the same reasons. How are clubs going to afford this all? Some will manage but many will not. Well we're totally fucked then, because this is all going to be the case regardless of whether we call this season now or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, The Master said: Forgive me if I don't put a lot of stock in what the media say when there's a 387-page thread in the Premiership forum dedicated to terrible journalism. Are the people "reporting" it on here somehow in the know, or simply parroting what the "media sources" say? The vote requires to be passed by 75% of the Premiership (9 yes votes) from 12) AND 75% of the Championship (8 Yes votes from 10) AND 75% of the bottom 2 divisions (15 yes votes from 20). An abstention = a no. You either vote yes or you dont. Edited April 9, 2020 by Skyline Drifter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Well we're totally fucked then, because this is all going to be the case regardless of whether we call this season now or not. They might know what league they're in if the actual terms on which this season is prematurely ended includes that, but otherwise, fair enough. But that's an important caveat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spikethedee Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Ad Lib said: The problems with this are myriad, Spikethestupid. 1. Sport really isn't different from other fields of employment. In plenty other walks of life there are restrictions on the type of work you can do for a subsequent employer because of the terms on which you were contracted by your predecessors. Non-compete clauses, laws on preventing conflicts of interest etc. are rife. 2. You are confusing employment contracts with player registration. Teams can employ who they like, but they can't play them if another team still holds their registration. This isn't special to sport, just the details of performance of contractual duties. FIFA and UEFA can relax or tighten their own player registration laws but they are not in charge of the law of contract in any country nor are they in charge of employment law generally in the EU and the UK. 3. The issue isn't that players might sign for other teams if they are still in contract. It is that (a) they might refuse to sign a contract extension without significantly improved playing terms by holding clubs hostage during a time when they can't sign replacements or that (b) the Club cannot afford to offer wages on acceptable terms, or even their existing terms, over the summer. Lots of Clubs only sign most of their squad from July or August to May, and only contract higher value or long-term desirable players over summers. Basically this is a terrible idea totally at odds with football finance, the reality of employment law, or any semblance of sporting fairness and you should f**k off, but stay at home. So, the myriad problems with your myriad problems Ad Lib (can't be arsed thinking u a suitably insulting take on your username because I'm not a sad c**t) are that: 1. Sport IS different. You have to have a level playing field when it comes to actual games. You can't have one team starting a match with 18 players, because they have a big squad, against one with 11, that just isn't fair. You can, however, employ as many accountants, customer service advisors etc etc, as you can afford in other companies and have them working all at once. 2. I am not saying that players can't employ other players, they have to only play the players they would have done if the season had ended when it should have done. As I said, any player or club in my scenario can refuse to sign/agree the extended contract, they would just have to accept the consequence - a player couldn't play for anyone else (a club could sign him and pay him, but would be unable to play him), a club would see the player become a free agent and be eligible to sign for a rival club and potentially harm their own chances of winning the remaining matches. 3. I noted that teams can sign free agents, who other clubs have let go because they didn't want to agree to an extended contract. Most teams will have been furloughing players for some time by the time the season could re-start, and may also have had the additional money that other Government schemes allow them to apply for. Some teams even had the foresight to insure themselves against such possibilities. So there you have it, no employment laws broken, people and companies just having to accept the consequences of their actions if they don't want to finish the season as it should have been, which is the very essence of sporting farness, So I shall stay at home and thank my lucky stars that I'm not an annoying p***k like you. Edited April 9, 2020 by Spikethedee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 15 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Well we're totally fucked then, because this is all going to be the case regardless of whether we call this season now or not. No, because if we don't restart the season clubs can still use the furlough scheme (provided the government extends it). They'll still have to contend with other costs but hopefully fundraising can cover that. Wages are the highest outlay at any club. Once the details of next season are sorted and we know when it will be and the format etc then clubs can start selling season tickets and start talking to sponsors etc. They can start selling hospitality and new strips and other merchandise. They can see who will be in their league and budget for expected crowd sizes (further matchday income). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eez-eh Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 56 minutes ago, 101 said: Thank you, that is some score on this website but still an important one if there is no-one working for the clubs who is going to do any of the admin. The vast majority of clubs use a standard template for contracts provided by the SPFL, so I don’t imagine a lot of work goes into drafting it up. There’s also nothing to stop people from doing it at home, things can be signed, scanned and sent via email. It‘s hardly an insurmountable problem and to suggest that’s where this would all fall down is a bit ridiculous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Ayr145 said: I don't get all this Dundee shit, play the league out cause we're going up. You're pish and if the league played out you'd be outside the playoffs. My team : Ayr. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr145 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dele said: My team : Ayr. Aye, we're not getting above our station unlike you 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derry Alli Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ayr145 said: Aye, we're not getting above our station unlike you Quote one Dundee fan that's said if the season continues we're getting promoted. One. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayr145 Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dele said: Quote one Dundee fan that's said if the season continues we're getting promoted. One. So why all the negativity to wards the deal? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spikethedee Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Ayr145 said: So why all the negativity to wards the deal? I would suggest 25% wanting to piss off the DABS and 75% wanting a chance to see how the season pans out.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmadrid Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 46 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: No, because if we don't restart the season clubs can still use the furlough scheme (provided the government extends it). They'll still have to contend with other costs but hopefully fundraising can cover that. Wages are the highest outlay at any club. Once the details of next season are sorted and we know when it will be and the format etc then clubs can start selling season tickets and start talking to sponsors etc. They can start selling hospitality and new strips and other merchandise. They can see who will be in their league and budget for expected crowd sizes (further matchday income). How many fans will buy season tickets when they find out it might be closed doors until October , November or December? Germany are now talking about no fans at games until 2021 and they seem to have things a bit more under control then we do. How many sponsors will come forward as well. it could all depend on how the closed doors games are covered, Can clubs give season ticket holders free access to their TV channels or will Sky step up and cover more games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnydun Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ayr145 said: So why all the negativity to wards the deal? Voting for it puts an end to any play off chances. Not our fault the Ayr United chairman clearly lacks a spine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmadrid Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Ayr145 said: So why all the negativity to wards the deal? Who believes the "discussion on reconstruction' will come to anything Far better to get it agreed first then look at the rest of this season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Flash Posted April 9, 2020 Share Posted April 9, 2020 47 minutes ago, DA Baracus said: No, because if we don't restart the season clubs can still use the furlough scheme (provided the government extends it). They'll still have to contend with other costs but hopefully fundraising can cover that. Wages are the highest outlay at any club. Once the details of next season are sorted and we know when it will be and the format etc then clubs can start selling season tickets and start talking to sponsors etc. They can start selling hospitality and new strips and other merchandise. They can see who will be in their league and budget for expected crowd sizes (further matchday income). They can’t use the furlough scheme for players who are replacements for any leaving at the end of the season or for players who aren’t re-signed immediately after their contract ends, even if the Government extends the period. Obviously, if clubs don’t sign replacements, they won’t have any wages. But I’m not sure how realistic it would be to hold off signing players until just before football resumes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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