WoSFL Premier Division thread

[jimbaxters]

33 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

The Junior Cup does not have prize money, the clubs get paid from the gate money with the SJFA guaranteeing a certain amount each round - £2k for the upcoming quarter-finals for example, meaning if there's a big enough crowd the SJFA aren't paying out any money. (unsure if that table in the rules means both clubs or only the losers in each round get the money listed?)

Also 24/80 WOSFL clubs do not take part in the Junior Cup btw.

Voluntary except for the East and North Region clubs of course. Am I a young arty farty new age type for thinking that the SJFA should be doing more to help smaller clubs with travel expenses rather than guaranteeing so much "prize money" in the latter stages?

Well at this stage it's basically a WOS Cup, with only 1 non-WOS team in the quarters in the last five tournaments, compared to usually 3 before the East teams left.

But it's not though. There are clubs from all over the country, from different regions in the first round draw. Look back on wiki at the years before the pyramid came about and you will see plenty of years where there were the majority of teams in the quarters from the West.

[rhubarb1974]

33 minutes ago, Shanner said:

The Junior Cup still provides a decent payday for a few clubs. It manages this because many fans still enjoy the games. Nobody is seriously suggesting it has retained it's historical importance however it still offers a relatively attractive competition due to the lack of fan excitement for other non league trophies. 

Design and launch a superior alternative and the SJC would probably be dead by the next season but at the moment it survives due to good old fashioned supply and demand. 

I completely get people's reservations about it's continuation but normal football fans generally don't want to discard things that add an overall value to the game they watch, which I think the SJC still demonstrably does.

The people who tirelessly bemoan it on pure ideological of grade grounds ("jUnIoRs bAd") are 100% for the watching. 

 

The SJC is the best non-league cup in Scotland, South Challenge is very poorly run and prize money is shocking, West of Scotland Cup not taking particularly serious. Even the superstars of our league, Clydebank, got it handed to them in final of the South Challenge Cup after failing to remotely compete with Talbot. 

 

The Lowland league is the league no one wants to be in, zero crowds, plastic pitches galore, higher costs, further travel. I have yet to see an agruement that the lowland league is a league fans want to be in or a league that anyone really takes note of. It is the graveyard league. 

[Ginaro]

22 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

But it's not though. There are clubs from all over the country, from different regions in the first round draw. Look back on wiki at the years before the pyramid came about and you will see plenty of years where there were the majority of teams in the quarters from the West.

Sorry, by "this stage" I meant the upcoming SJC quarters, and yes I did look back before the exodus where usually 3/8 were non-WOS teams. 

8 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

The SJC is the best non-league cup in Scotland, South Challenge is very poorly run and prize money is shocking, West of Scotland Cup not taking particularly serious. Even the superstars of our league, Clydebank, got it handed to them in final of the South Challenge Cup after failing to remotely compete with Talbot. 

The Lowland league is the league no one wants to be in, zero crowds, plastic pitches galore, higher costs, further travel. I have yet to see an agruement that the lowland league is a league fans want to be in or a league that anyone really takes note of. It is the graveyard league. 

You got beat by the second worst team in the Lowland League, I don't think you're in any place to talk about other clubs cup results.

[holmparkheroes]

58 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

The SJC is the best non-league cup in Scotland, South Challenge is very poorly run and prize money is shocking, West of Scotland Cup not taking particularly serious. Even the superstars of our league, Clydebank, got it handed to them in final of the South Challenge Cup after failing to remotely compete with Talbot. 

 

The Lowland league is the league no one wants to be in, zero crowds, plastic pitches galore, higher costs, further travel. I have yet to see an agruement that the lowland league is a league fans want to be in or a league that anyone really takes note of. It is the graveyard league. 

I thought that I had been to every Bankies game last season, must have been on holiday for that one. I was at the West final where Talbot deservedly won. 
 

In ten years or so the Lowland League will be of a higher standard and be a very competitive division, it’s already evolving towards that.

[Darwizzy]

Rhubarb’s missus must have left him for a guy from Clydebank. 

[Shanner]

2 hours ago, holmparkheroes said:

I thought that I had been to every Bankies game last season, must have been on holiday for that one. I was at the West final where Talbot deservedly won. 
 

In ten years or so the Lowland League will be of a higher standard and be a very competitive division, it’s already evolving towards that.

Agreed. Every season the LL gains one or two 'proper' teams from promotion and relegation while the WOS doesn't. I know we're only talking East Stirling and Berwick Rangers here but this must make it more attractive to the more traditional-minded fans. 

Also, the WOS league is inevitably going to lose some of it's best sides as  the LL improves and I don't see those West teams coming back down any time soon, so the WOS Division is going to become ever-weaker quality wise. 

[Shannon]

If Clydebank or Broxburn go up and Clyde come down from SPFL with hopefully Edinburgh Uni and Gretna both being relegated that will tip the Lowland League into majority being ex SPFL and Junior teams who will hopefully be more open to having a normal 3 up / 3 down relegation system or at least 2 up / 2 down and perhaps no more B teams for 2026....or perhaps not...

[rhubarb1974]

13 hours ago, Shanner said:

Agreed. Every season the LL gains one or two 'proper' teams from promotion and relegation while the WOS doesn't. I know we're only talking East Stirling and Berwick Rangers here but this must make it more attractive to the more traditional-minded fans. 

Also, the WOS league is inevitably going to lose some of it's best sides as  the LL improves and I don't see those West teams coming back down any time soon, so the WOS Division is going to become ever-weaker quality wise. 

I can see the LL becoming a closed shop soon. The SPFL do not want to lose clubs that have historically always been in the SPFL. 

 

The lowland league at the moment still is an unattractive league. In hindsight how the situation has unfolded, I would suspect that a number of teams would have changed their mind on the West of Scotland pyramid system. There has been no real benefit to it. One or two teams forced the idea, Kilwinning Rangers being one, that worked out well for them. Rutherglen Glencairn another, no better off now than before and the champions elect Clydebank who always thought themselves better than juniors, a team most would be glad to see the back off. 

[glensmad]

28 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

I can see the LL becoming a closed shop soon. The SPFL do not want to lose clubs that have historically always been in the SPFL. 

 

The lowland league at the moment still is an unattractive league. In hindsight how the situation has unfolded, I would suspect that a number of teams would have changed their mind on the West of Scotland pyramid system. There has been no real benefit to it. One or two teams forced the idea, Kilwinning Rangers being one, that worked out well for them. Rutherglen Glencairn another, no better off now than before and the champions elect Clydebank who always thought themselves better than juniors, a team most would be glad to see the back off. 

Prior to the formation of the WoSFL, Rutherglen Glencairn were in a league set-up that had no potential for progression above the Premier League, and we had no access to Scottish FA Licensing and no access to playing in The Scottish Cup. The formation of the WoSFL changed all that and opened all sorts of doors for us.

[DanMan]

45 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

I can see the LL becoming a closed shop soon. The SPFL do not want to lose clubs that have historically always been in the SPFL. 

 

The lowland league at the moment still is an unattractive league. In hindsight how the situation has unfolded, I would suspect that a number of teams would have changed their mind on the West of Scotland pyramid system. There has been no real benefit to it. One or two teams forced the idea, Kilwinning Rangers being one, that worked out well for them. Rutherglen Glencairn another, no better off now than before and the champions elect Clydebank who always thought themselves better than juniors, a team most would be glad to see the back off. 

I think most teams treasurers are delighted when Clydebank roll into town. Still if you don't see that benefit, maybe arrange for Clydebank fans to get into Darvel for free next month.  

[rhubarb1974]

1 hour ago, glensmad said:

Prior to the formation of the WoSFL, Rutherglen Glencairn were in a league set-up that had no potential for progression above the Premier League, and we had no access to Scottish FA Licensing and no access to playing in The Scottish Cup. The formation of the WoSFL changed all that and opened all sorts of doors for us.

Why could you not get a license, Talbot were playing in the big Scottish for years? As a club are you better off now? 

 

Unless a team has a backer then they will not be any better off. What benefit to teams like lugar, kello, irvine vics etc...has the pyramid got? For them they are no different than under the old junior system. 

 

Teams are being caught out financially now, we (Darvel) are one, spend money to chase the dream, Edinburgh City, Kelty Hearts are now without their board that took them up as they jumped ship to Raith Rovers, Pollok issued a plea for £200/member to keep them afloat as they have cash issues and I am hearing they have failed to pay for a recent transfer signing. Out of the teams mentioned there Pollok are a huge club with big fan base in a fairly affluent area, if they are struggling I think others will show signs of strain shortly.

 

Money being spent in recent years, I accept we were one of the most guilty, and wages being paid were crazy. It was never going to be sustainable at this level, the driving factor behind it being pyramid system. Although I like to have a go at Talbot, they have kept a lid on spending and still been winning cups and up towards the top of the league, long term they will be the one to benefit, between club money and money in their 100 club along with no debts, I have been told by a good source they are in a very healthy position and still have plans to further upgrade ground all of which is not at the cost of the club but by volunteers.  

[glensmad]

12 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

Why could you not get a license, Talbot were playing in the big Scottish for years?

Quite simply because the SJFA were not part of the Scottish football pyramid at the time, and weren't going to be under the leadership of Tom Johnston. Getting a license meant that you had to be playing in a pyramid league.

Talbot only got access to The Scottish Cup through winning the Scottish Junior Cup regularly, or the West Region Premier Division.

Edited February 1 by glensmad

[rhubarb1974]

12 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Quite simply because the SJFA were not part of the Scottish football pyramid at the time, and weren't going to be under the leadership of Tom Johnston. Getting a license meant that you had to be playing in a pyramid league.

Talbot only got access to The Scottish Cup through winning the Scottish Junior Cup regularly, or the West Region Premier Division.

So simply put a competitive team out and win the west juniors then you would have had access? 

 

Do you see yourselves climbing the divisions? Or do you think the only benefit will be access to Scottish (assuming you are licensed) 

[glensmad]

43 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

So simply put a competitive team out and win the west juniors then you would have had access?  

Access to The Scottish Cup, yes, but not access to promotion to a higher level.

[glensmad]

44 minutes ago, rhubarb1974 said:

Do you see yourselves climbing the divisions? Or do you think the only benefit will be access to Scottish (assuming you are licensed) 

In time, yes. When the teams who have more financial clout than us have all moved up (which will happen in time) then Glencairn will be in a position to join them, assuming we keep our Scottish FA licence. Whether that happens during my time involved with the club, who knows ? But at least we have given future generations of Glencairn custodians the opportunity to do so, which previous generations couldn't.

[PossilYM]

16 minutes ago, glensmad said:

In time, yes. When the teams who have more financial clout than us have all moved up (which will happen in time) then Glencairn will be in a position to join them, assuming we keep our Scottish FA licence. Whether that happens during my time involved with the club, who knows ? But at least we have given future generations of Glencairn custodians the opportunity to do so, which previous generations couldn't.

Tick Tock

[BANKIEBILL]

10 minutes ago, PossilYM said:

Tick Tock

What does that mean?

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, rhubarb1974 said:

So simply put a competitive team out and win the west juniors then you would have had access? 

Do you see yourselves climbing the divisions? Or do you think the only benefit will be access to Scottish (assuming you are licensed) 

You can't even be consistent from post to post - you bemoan the fact that clubs are now spending too much money and are unsustainable, then next post you're saying that clubs in the Juniors should've just been more competitive (i.e. spent money) and win the league to access the Scottish Cup. Fortunately access to the Scottish Cup is now available to those who invest in their club and facilities, and even smaller clubs like Carluke can achieve this.

4 hours ago, rhubarb1974 said:

I can see the LL becoming a closed shop soon. The SPFL do not want to lose clubs that have historically always been in the SPFL. 

Bit late for that, the LL already has four ex-SPFL clubs (plus Gretna) and none look like returning any time soon.

[glensmad]

1 hour ago, BANKIEBILL said:

What does that mean?

He probably doesn't even know himself. He'll probably reply saying something about Sevco.

[rhubarb1974]

43 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

You can't even be consistent from post to post - you bemoan the fact that clubs are now spending too much money and are unsustainable, then next post you're saying that clubs in the Juniors should've just been more competitive (i.e. spent money) and win the league to access the Scottish Cup. Fortunately access to the Scottish Cup is now available to those who invest in their club and facilities, and even smaller clubs like Carluke can achieve this.

Bit late for that, the LL already has four ex-SPFL clubs (plus Gretna) and none look like returning any time soon.

You can be competitive and live within your means, don't spend money you don't have. Beith won the league last season and I would put my house on it that they had a fraction of the wage bill we did. Throwing money at a team has been proven time and again not to work long term, the income makes it difficult and to be honest needless to be spending £800/week on a single players wage which we were paying McShane. Talbot have been successful scouting from lower leagues, not always looking for ex-seniors, Beith have been likewise. Both those clubs have stability and also trophy cabinets full, we have one cup of note being the west premier league.

 

My point with the SPFL / LL is that they will not want to see an influx of new teams, anything that rocks the boat too much isn't normally taken well. Look at Edinburgh City that situation is a farce, Gretna in the past promoted to premier league then couldn't pay wages etc...the SPFL will be keen to retain their traditional teams. They already tried to force through the conference league. LL have non-competitive B teams playing that can influence the league outcome yet can't win it.