WoSFL Premier Division thread

[Guest]

With the possibility of there being a non licenced champ, 2 questions.

How many licenced clubs are there in Prem Land and is there anything in the constitution re Prem Clubs showing they are progressing to becoming a licencee?

[FairWeatherFan]

22 minutes ago, HorseyGhirl said:

With the possibility of there being a non licenced champ, 2 questions.

How many licenced clubs are there in Prem Land and is there anything in the constitution re Prem Clubs showing they are progressing to becoming a licencee?

Nothing that requires becoming licensed.

7/16 of the current Premier teams are licenced: Auchinleck Talbot, Clydebank, Cumnock, Darvel, Irvine Meadow, Kilwinning Rangers, Pollok

Most of them look safe for next season, just Kilwinning are risk of relegation. Glenafton are due to be licenced next season and look safe. Can't remember if there's anyone else from the current Premier teams likely. Maybe Troon?

Benburb could be promoted and are members.

Next season may have a slight majority of licenced clubs.

[Guest]

With news filtering through that the potential winners of the SOS obtaining a licence and with a majority of EOS title challengers already licenced; what steps are the non-licenced clubs in WOS taking to obtain theirs?

A big question remains; are some of these clubs not interested in licencing? 

Mainly asking Beith supporters obviously.

 

 

[Vuvuzela]

Here's an observation from a supporter (not a Beith one).

Beith are, and for many years have been, a well respected and well run club, they will no doubt do what's best for them. At the moment it appears licensing isn't their preferred option, however whether it is or isn't, the business of their club is done in house.

Last night's match was a fantastic advert for football at this level. A fame of two half's played in a compact stadium with a healthy home and away support and I suspect a fair sprinkling of neutrals.

Based on last night alone, a championship winning Beith team will will do this league no harm for the season ahead.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HorseyGhirl said:

With news filtering through that the potential winners of the SOS obtaining a licence and with a majority of EOS title challengers already licenced; what steps are the non-licenced clubs in WOS taking to obtain theirs?

A big question remains; are some of these clubs not interested in licencing? 

Mainly asking Beith supporters obviously.

 

 

Re-read that myself and wasn't insinuating that Beith aren't interested in licencing. 

My question about the interest was one of those rhetorical thingies.

Just interested if they have started or thinking about starting the process.

A wider point for me is that we now have an almost all encompassing pyramid and if any club is in a pyramid league they should be committed to that process. I personally don't agree with any club not getting a licence and being a barrier to those that are committed.(punitive action neded).

Not a dig at Beith as fully aware it is still early days for licencing in the West, but in 5 years time if we are in same positiont then that is wrong.

For years been like that down here in South with number of clubs happy to be at Tier 6 but not interested in engaging fully in pyramid. But with news of potentially 3 new licencees happy days.

West clubs have so much to offer the pyramid so would hate for it to be stagnated due to intransigence of a few clubs. Again not a dig at Beith just a general observation.

[Arthurlie1981]

1 hour ago, HorseyGhirl said:

With news filtering through that the potential winners of the SOS obtaining a licence and with a majority of EOS title challengers already licenced; what steps are the non-licenced clubs in WOS taking to obtain theirs?

A big question remains; are some of these clubs not interested in licencing? 

Mainly asking Beith supporters obviously.

 

 

The point I would make is that this is only the 2nd full season of the WOSFL. Some clubs were nearer being licensed than others and some will have more resources to get their quicker, so I don't think it is a case of not being interested. 

Using my own club as an example, there have been plenty of discussions around it and the overwhelming position is that it will be done, but how is done is the big discussion point. Are we able to do it at Dunterlie? Do we have to move? How do we fund it? What timescales are we working to? 

All of that needs resolved before we apply to become licensed. 

But again, it's only year 2, nobody thought at the half way point that Beith would win the league (I would guess not even Beith fans) so it probably wasn't in their thought process. I think to criticise the league (BestSinceSlicedBread for one) is wrong.

[maicoman]

51 minutes ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Re-read that myself and wasn't insinuating that Beith aren't interested in licencing. 

My question about the interest was one of those rhetorical thingies.

Just interested if they have started or thinking about starting the process.

A wider point for me is that we now have an almost all encompassing pyramid and if any club is in a pyramid league they should be committed to that process. I personally don't agree with any club not getting a licence and being a barrier to those that are committed.(punitive action neded).

Not a dig at Beith as fully aware it is still early days for licencing in the West, but in 5 years time if we are in same positiont then that is wrong.

For years been like that down here in South with number of clubs happy to be at Tier 6 but not interested in engaging fully in pyramid. But with news of potentially 3 new licencees happy days.

West clubs have so much to offer the pyramid so would hate for it to be stagnated due to intransigence of a few clubs. Again not a dig at Beith just a general observation.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

56 minutes ago, HorseyGhirl said:

Re-read that myself and wasn't insinuating that Beith aren't interested in licencing. 

My question about the interest was one of those rhetorical thingies.

Just interested if they have started or thinking about starting the process.

A wider point for me is that we now have an almost all encompassing pyramid and if any club is in a pyramid league they should be committed to that process. I personally don't agree with any club not getting a licence and being a barrier to those that are committed.(punitive action neded).

Not a dig at Beith as fully aware it is still early days for licencing in the West, but in 5 years time if we are in same positiont then that is wrong.

For years been like that down here in South with number of clubs happy to be at Tier 6 but not interested in engaging fully in pyramid. But with news of potentially 3 new licencees happy days.

West clubs have so much to offer the pyramid so would hate for it to be stagnated due to intransigence of a few clubs. Again not a dig at Beith just a general observation.

I think the best solution is a tier 6 league encompassing licensed teams in west, south and east, means clubs without a licence dont have to do anything and those who wish to progress can do so with relegation or expansion possible for newly licensed teams? A LL2 i guess. 

[Shanner]

4 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think the best solution is a tier 6 league encompassing licensed teams in west, south and east, means clubs without a licence dont have to do anything and those who wish to progress can do so with relegation or expansion possible for newly licensed teams? A LL2 i guess. 

Although not ideal, I'd be more in favour of just allowing the highest placed licenced side into the playoff spot. It would dilute the quality too much to start separating sides based on not footballing criteria.  Surely it's just a matter of time before the likes of Beith get themselves sorted. 

[Arthurlie1981]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think the best solution is a tier 6 league encompassing licensed teams in west, south and east, means clubs without a licence dont have to do anything and those who wish to progress can do so with relegation or expansion possible for newly licensed teams? A LL2 i guess. 

But that's not a pyramid. How many clubs have said they are not interested in getting licensed?

Dont take this the wrong way but Bankies (and Yoker) got the council to (so I understand) mainly foot the bill for the improvements made to Holm Park as it is owned by them, but for clubs like ourselves and others we have to find all that money from fundraising and grants or by moving ground (which is fraught with danger, look at KRR). That all takes time, we can't simply click our fingers and it is done. 

I know there are other things that need to be done but the main financial commitment is the ground improvements and that will be the stumbling blocks for some clubs. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

1 minute ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

But that's not a pyramid. How many clubs have said they are not interested in getting licensed?

Dont take this the wrong way but Bankies (and Yoker) got the council to (so I understand) mainly foot the bill for the improvements made to Holm Park as it is owned by them, but for clubs like ourselves and others we have to find all that money from fundraising and grants or by moving ground (which is fraught with danger, look at KRR). That all takes time, we can't simply click our fingers and it is done. 

I know there are other things that need to be done but the main financial commitment is the ground improvements and that will be the stumbling blocks for some clubs. 

The council paid for the all weather pitch but thats not a necessity of licensing, they paid for the lights yes, but the cover which got us licensed was paid for by the club, as was the disabled enclosure, refs room etc. you’ll know from looking at the criteria that its more than just commitment on the field, its the courses, policies etc that also have to be fufilled, arguably the stuff in the ground is some of the easiest to get the head round. 
The trade off for the council is that there was a stated proven need for football and recreation facilities and establishing the football academy meant an arms length organisation could run such a facility on a sustaining basis, reducing the burden on the council. 
I do get the overall point you are making but theres also an argument that for a long time clubs spent a fortune on chasing success on the park with sugar daddies etc pouring money into wage budgets, indeed some still do, whilst making no effort to improve facilities. Thats why I think a further lowland division would be ideal because even over a 10 year period it takes the pressure off clubs to move along if they arent ready to apply for licensing and make it fair for clubs who’ve invested in the club on and off the park instead of ploughing money into a wage bill etc. I dare say the likes of Lok have been actually disadvantaged by the imposing of the 900 capacity and thats probably cost them a chance to really compete?

I advocated right at the start of all of this that it was perfectly reasonable for some folks to stay in the sjfa etc if they werent interested in moving upwards. 

[beithboy]

6 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The council paid for the all weather pitch but thats not a necessity of licensing, they paid for the lights yes, but the cover which got us licensed was paid for by the club, as was the disabled enclosure, refs room etc. you’ll know from looking at the criteria that its more than just commitment on the field, its the courses, policies etc that also have to be fufilled, arguably the stuff in the ground is some of the easiest to get the head round. 
The trade off for the council is that there was a stated proven need for football and recreation facilities and establishing the football academy meant an arms length organisation could run such a facility on a sustaining basis, reducing the burden on the council. 
I do get the overall point you are making but theres also an argument that for a long time clubs spent a fortune on chasing success on the park with sugar daddies etc pouring money into wage budgets, indeed some still do, whilst making no effort to improve facilities. Thats why I think a further lowland division would be ideal because even over a 10 year period it takes the pressure off clubs to move along if they arent ready to apply for licensing and make it fair for clubs who’ve invested in the club on and off the park instead of ploughing money into a wage bill etc. I dare say the likes of Lok have been actually disadvantaged by the imposing of the 900 capacity and thats probably cost them a chance to really compete?

I advocated right at the start of all of this that it was perfectly reasonable for some folks to stay in the sjfa etc if they werent interested in moving upwards. 

I don’t think it’s a case if teams not being interested in moving up, there are many factors that will stop a team going for their license quickly.  Not every team has a sugar daddy pumping money in and it will take them time to get the facilities in place.  To try and exclude them and force them to do do upgrades to their facilities that they might not be able to finance at this time and put the survival of the club in jeopardy just to keep the clubs that already have the facilities in place happy is madness.   Even Talbot did not do it on their own they got funding from the council to help with costs, some councils elsewhere in Scotland are not willing to assist their local clubs.   There are more than half the clubs in our division that are not licensed.  

[Spyro]

39 minutes ago, beithboy said:

sugar daddy pumping money in

Lost me there. The go-to phrase for any committee or supporter who have given up on their club succeding, I cringe every time I see it. 

Many clubs without a pot to piss in have managed it with hard work and plenty of dedication. There are other ways to raise funds

[stumpy]

50 minutes ago, Spyro said:

Lost me there. The go-to phrase for any committee or supporter who have given up on their club succeding, I cringe every time I see it. 

Many clubs without a pot to piss in have managed it with hard work and plenty of dedication. There are other ways to raise funds

I think in the case of beith they could raise the funds quite quickly if needed. Given the fact that where beith were a year ago noone probably in their wildest dreams would have expected them to be where they are now and dare I say it champions elect all baring a cataclysmic collapse. On winning the league we would still get the senior Scottish cup entry for next season. Yes getting your liscence and promotion can have it's benefits with more prize money etc but at same time operating and running costs will also increase. I to be honest would rather guarantee the club's financial future.

[Johnny Sox]

Beith have done a remarkable job.

Very difficult to finance a league winning squad and go for a licence, all about priorities.

 

[Guest]

Thanks guys for not turning this into a slanging match. Some thoughtful and considered comments.

On the lowland league chat thread I have mentioned the setting up of a South non league association where all leagues involved can work together for a better pyramid. I know I'm a dreamer.

@Inanimate Carbon Rodhas hit on an interesting narrative with the LL2 scenario. There are 2 ways to look at setting that up;

1. A straight LL2 with a mixture of licenced and non-licenced clubs but all committed and actively going for their licence.

2. A LL West and LL East which will be  staging post for clubs progressing toward a licence.

This would make rel/pro easier from LL1 down. For this to work there needs to be proper promotion between whatever LL2 looks like and the WOS/EOS/SOS. It can also allow the East to have a north south split at what would be Tier 7 as we have in the West at Tier 6 now.

Obviously there are a lot of points about this that would need clarifying; boundaries, sanctions if a club in the new LL2's dont commit to licencing, how regionalisation would look and so on.

I do think it is unfair on some Prem Clubs in all 3 Tier 6 Leagues to be expected to get a licence when they will probably never challenge for the title. There are a number of other points to make but think that's enough for now.

[Darvel legend]

Beith are also a very young side , they have experience with Steg , frizer and Carlo but that team with a couple of additions could be very hard to Beat in years to come , Chris and kev have done some job 

[Arthurlie1981]

4 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The council paid for the all weather pitch but thats not a necessity of licensing, they paid for the lights yes, but the cover which got us licensed was paid for by the club, as was the disabled enclosure, refs room etc. you’ll know from looking at the criteria that its more than just commitment on the field, its the courses, policies etc that also have to be fufilled, arguably the stuff in the ground is some of the easiest to get the head round. 
The trade off for the council is that there was a stated proven need for football and recreation facilities and establishing the football academy meant an arms length organisation could run such a facility on a sustaining basis, reducing the burden on the council. 
I do get the overall point you are making but theres also an argument that for a long time clubs spent a fortune on chasing success on the park with sugar daddies etc pouring money into wage budgets, indeed some still do, whilst making no effort to improve facilities. Thats why I think a further lowland division would be ideal because even over a 10 year period it takes the pressure off clubs to move along if they arent ready to apply for licensing and make it fair for clubs who’ve invested in the club on and off the park instead of ploughing money into a wage bill etc. I dare say the likes of Lok have been actually disadvantaged by the imposing of the 900 capacity and thats probably cost them a chance to really compete?

I advocated right at the start of all of this that it was perfectly reasonable for some folks to stay in the sjfa etc if they werent interested in moving upwards. 

I know exactly what is required to be licensed and I know it is more than the ground, but the ground is the 1 thing that costs the most money. The other stuff like courses do have a monetary cost but also time, but these are still more affordable than putting in place floodlights etc. The Bankies have done a phenomenal job of improving Holm Park and rightly deserve praise, but without the floodlights paid for by the council,  could they have afforded to get their license as quick? I agree about what the LA did but other LA's are different and have different priorities. Its great WDC are onside with helping Clydebank/Yoker but others are not and have actively been against clubs in their areas at certain points. Even locals can be against the club!!

I am not saying that clubs shouldn't be working towards it, they should, but to say after 2 years of this being up and running we need to change and relegate clubs (which is what a LL2 or LL East/West would do) is unfair. If it were in year 5, I would certainly think differently but to expect it to be sort be now, imo, is not realistic.

Beith are not winning the league because they have outspent every other team while letting their ground go to ruin, they have won (or will win it) because they have spent wisely while also improving their ground with new changing rooms and facilities. All they really lack in terms of on the pitch is the floodlights. Just because other teams (with bigger budgets) have not met their levels shouldn't mean we thought the baby out with the bath water.

[Arthurlie1981]

4 hours ago, Spyro said:

Lost me there. The go-to phrase for any committee or supporter who have given up on their club succeding, I cringe every time I see it. 

Many clubs without a pot to piss in have managed it with hard work and plenty of dedication. There are other ways to raise funds

Of course it is, but it might take several years to do so. 

[razamanaz]

2 hours ago, Johnny Sox said:

Beith have done a remarkable job.

Very difficult to finance a league winning squad and go for a licence, all about priorities.

 

Re Falkirk when they played at Brockville - won the league but couldn't go up because the ground didn't come up to Premier League standards. Eventually tried to get their house in order but it has been a struggle ever since.

Who is going to represent the WoSL in the play-offs - will it be the next licenced team?