St Johnstone v Motherwell, 21/11/20

[Lang Toon Saintee]

4 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Wow, a team "lucky to get a point" against St Johnstone for the 10th time in 14 games this season!

It's so easy isn't it

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, The Marly said:

We were clearly more dangerous last season. 

Yes we looked more dangerous, because Hendry was scoring with almost every shot.

Hendry scored 6 out of the 18 goals scored in the 16 home games last season. This season he can't hit the target. That's a third of your goal threat gone. Would we look more dangerous with him challenging for headers than May?

Of those 18 goals scored in 16 home games, 3 came against Hamilton, and 3 came against Hearts. 

We failed to score in 5 out of 16 home games, with one game being decided by an own goal. So technically, we didn't score a goal.in 6 out of 16 home games last season, despite Hendry being so clinical.

This is an issue that's been with us since last season.

[Ron Aldo]

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

On the game, I'd probably have taken a point yesterday even before we lost Campbell and Maguire so I'm happy enough with the result.

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

You asking for trouble?

[PauloPerth]

51 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Yes. 

We have an attack that barely creates chances, like this season.

Last season Hendry was converting chances at an unrealistic, unsustainable rate. This season he is not.

He scored 0.88 goals per 90, a rate that only Edouard last season has bettered over the past 3 years. That was 0.38 higher than his xG, an overperformance that was almost double every other striker who's played in the league over the past 3 years. He was averaging 2.9 shots per90, this season hes averaging 3.4 shots per90, and his xG is 0.4, compared to 0.5 last season.

Both May and Kane are both getting more shots, and more shots on target this season. Both have higher xG this season.

The problem isn't that were less attacking than last season, its that the players we have don't create enough chances. Same issue as last season, apart from Hendry now dipping due to massive overperformance last season.

For a man who likes stats you are quite happy to ignore the most significant one when measuring how effective a team is in attack!

Take Hendry's 6 home league goals out if you want. That still leaves us 13 in 16 games (0.8 goals per game).  With Hendry's goals we were 19 in 16 games (1.2 goals per game).

This season at home we have scored 3 in 8 (0.375 goals per game).

 

And when taking out Hendry's contribution, bear in mind there would be someone else in there instead who might have contributed with a few goals to boost the figures further.

 

[PauloPerth]

16 minutes ago, Ron Aldo said:

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

No we fucking don't 

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

For a man who likes stats you are quite happy to ignore the most significant one when measuring how effective a team is in attack!

Take Hendry's 6 home league goals out if you want. That still leaves us 13 in 16 games (0.8 goals per game).  With Hendry's goals we were 19 in 16 games (1.2 goals per game).

This season at home we have scored 3 in 8 (0.375 goals per game).

And when taking out Hendry's contribution, bear in mind there would be someone else in there instead who might have contributed with a few goals to boost the figures further.

We're maybe arguing different things here.

My point is we aren't creating more chances than last season, its just we were more clinical last season because Hendry was scoring with almost every shot.

I don't think we create enough in attack, but I also thought that last season. To me we're playing a different set up, but getting the same results, so changing the players is more likely to bring rewards.

Hendry scoring at such a high rate (goal just over every shot), means that its unlikely to be repeated.

In essence. We've been poor at creating chances since last season.

Hendry won't repeat what he managed last season.

Changing the set up to repeat last season won't bring more goals.

All IMO, obvs. Its fine if we don't all agree, I'm likely wrong.

[Fife Saint]

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

On the game, I'd probably have taken a point yesterday even before we lost Campbell and Maguire so I'm happy enough with the result.

It's a fucking football forum, Ron.

[Yorky]

Jeez when did St Johnstone fans get so sensitive. It was in poor game in pretty poor conditions, on a pretty poor pitch. I thought Saints were very lucky to finish the game with 11 men and yes we’ve had our share of “tough guys”, you can though still comment on poor tackles. Don’t think there is that much between the two teams with both capable of finishing top six dependant on injuries. A game though to forget.

[PauloPerth]

6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

We're maybe arguing different things here.

My point is we aren't creating more chances than last season, its just we were more clinical last season because Hendry was scoring with almost every shot.

I don't think we create enough in attack, but I also thought that last season. To me we're playing a different set up, but getting the same results, so changing the players is more likely to bring rewards.

Hendry scoring at such a high rate (goal just over every shot), means that its unlikely to be repeated.

In essence. We've been poor at creating chances since last season.

Hendry won't repeat what he managed last season.

Changing the set up to repeat last season won't bring more goals.

All IMO, obvs. Its fine if we don't all agree, I'm likely wrong.

Fair enough.

I didn't think we were great in attack last season by any means, but we were more effective than this one.  This season I just wonder at what point the manager thinks "this isn't working, I need to change things"?

A 1-1 draw with Motherwell in itself isn't that shocking a result, but the lack of goals at home this season are a concern to me.  I've felt we've dominated possession quite often this season, but I'm now at the point where I'd like to see end product.  

We used to slaughter Partick thistle fans who lauded their team for playing pretty passes across the park all game, when they were ineffective and struggled to score.

I just wonder for how long can it be down to bad luck?

 

[RandomGuy.]

8 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

I just wonder for how long can it be down to bad luck?

Likely be something we judge in retrospect, but if things don't improve, I'd be looking at changing players more than the system.

We get the ball near the box, and are now getting players in the box. Its down to the actual individuals now.

Of the attacking options, how many actually create chances regularly?

Wotherspoon tries, and May gets involved, but Conways delivery is poor. MOH offers nothing. Hendry is in his own head now and isn't playing well. Kane is Kane. Hopefully Melamed can do more if/when he comes in. I wouldn't say they don't get the ball often either, but that's maybe wrong.

[Jamie_B]

16 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

We used to slaughter Partick thistle fans who lauded their team for playing pretty passes across the park all game, when they were ineffective and struggled to score.

I just wonder for how long can it be down to bad luck?

 

Partick Thistle's big issue was that they were shite at the back and, as much as they played some nice passing football, they didn't really control the flow of the game. Teams like Saints were happy just to watch them knock the ball about in front of the defence safe in the knowledge they were likely to score at the other end.  The same was true in the early part of Dundee's relegation season when their fans were sure they just needed a better striker than Moussa to turn things around. But they had clownshoes like Darren O'Dea at the back so you knew you were going to get chances.

Saints probably were the better team in terms of controlling the game yesterday. I don't think we gave away much of anything at the back again and certainly in the second half didn't look like we'd concede. The Motherwell goal was a nice bit of football but Kerr does brilliantly to block the initial chance - only for it to pop up beautifully for O'Hara to smash into the net. That's the kind of thing that's happened quite a lot this season - where we've conceded from a rebound (yesterday, Hamilton's goal from the shot that came back off the bar) or from a non-chance (Vigurs v County) - is that bad luck or is there something we're not doing right?

The difference between yesterday's game and the likes of the County/Dundee United games is that we didn't turn the superiority in the middle and comfort at the back into real, clear cut chances. Kane needs to do better with his at the end but even then the defender may well have stopped it if he'd kept it down. Plenty of crosses put in yet again - and I actually felt the delivery was better yesterday than it has been - but there's nobody really attacking it. That's where you want a Callum Hendry, but we know how his form has been. If we had last season's Callum Hendry firing at that rate we'd be in the top four.

I don't think I can fault the structure, how well drilled the players are or how they're applying the system. The high press we employ leaves the opposition either likely to make a mistake - see our goal yesterday - or having to launch it long, which we are more than happy to deal with. The balance across the team is great and we look so comfortable most of the time. But the decision making at the top end is the big issue. There was a point in the first half yesterday when May turned on the ball and basically had a three on two - with a tricky reverse pass for Wotherspoon or an easy ball into Conway the options. He tried to reverse it to Wotherspoon and hit the defender. He couldn't have missed the pass to Conway. As the second half wore on Wotherspoon's crossing absolutely deserted him and everybody in a blue shirt lost the ability to play a 5/10 yard pass with any confidence.

I think when Motherwell brought on Lamie and basically gave up on any thought of winning the match we should have brought on Hendry for May and either Kane or Melamed for Wotherspoon. Hendry's job would have been just to stand between the posts and attack every cross that comes in, and the rest of the team would have been trying to feed McNamara or Tanser to get the ball into the box. Instead we spent our time overplaying it, losing possession in dangerous areas or - when we did get the cross in - ballooning it out of the park.

I'm a believer in this system - it is obviously working in terms of giving us the upper hand in virtually every game we play - or at least neutralising the threat of our opponents - but the end product has to improve drastically.

[santheman]

10 hours ago, Lang Toon Saintee said:

I dont really give a f**k  I was just trolling.

Yes yo do and No you weren’t 

Edited November 22, 2020 by santheman

[Casagolda]

51 minutes ago, Yorky said:

It was in poor game in pretty poor conditions, on a pretty poor pitch.

I’d say you nailed it there.

St Johnstone certainly had more of the ball, yet did very little with it. Chapman looked fairly suspect when called into action against Celtic but I genuinely don’t remember him having a save of note to make yesterday. 

We weren’t any better mind and the only time we managed to string a couple of passes together we scored. The penalty(how many have we given away now?) was so avoidable and frustratingly it handed a team struggling for goals a route back into the match. 

As for the bookings, I think the ref called most of them right with the exception of Bryson- who should have gone. McCann and McNamara’s were cynical as f**k, however I’d applaud a Motherwell player doing similar so it’d be hypocritical to complain.

Overall an utterly forgettable game where I’d say a draw was about right, everyone should just take their point and move on. 

[Desp]

15 minutes ago, Casagolda said:

As for the bookings, I think the ref called most of them right with the exception of Bryson- who should have gone. McCann and McNamara’s were cynical as f**k, however I’d applaud a Motherwell player doing similar so it’d be hypocritical to complain.

Overall an utterly forgettable game where I’d say a draw was about right, everyone should just take their point and move on. 

When you think of some of the nonsense you get booked for these days, it's mental to think McCann and McNanamara's tackles only merit the same punishment. However, im with you on the fact that I'd applaud Motherwell players for doing the same. It's great team play, you know the team are in trouble so you'll take one for the team. Frustrating when it happens to your side, but I remember McCall's side being utterly shite at stopping counters when we basically played a 4-1-5 formation. 

As for the last paragraph, spot on. Poor game, poor pitch, a point each will do. 

[Mark Connolly]

1 hour ago, Ron Aldo said:

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

On the game, I'd probably have taken a point yesterday even before we lost Campbell and Maguire so I'm happy enough with the result.

If you look at the stats, their xArguments in match threads is 6.8, which is higher than average, while their xA in an empty room is 2.4, which is sector leading.

[tree house tam]

2 hours ago, Fife Saint said:

2 hours ago, Ron Aldo said:

Do St. Johnstone fans just argue with everyone? If they're not arguing with opposition fans they seem to just argue with each other.

On the game, I'd probably have taken a point yesterday even before we lost Campbell and Maguire so I'm happy enough with the result.

It's a fucking football forum, Ron.

You c**t.

FTFY 

[Archie McSquackle]

This Melamed sounds like some player. Sounds as though we got away with one there with him not playing.

[tree house tam]

16 minutes ago, Archie McSquackle said:

This Melamed sounds like some player. Sounds as though we got away with one there with him not playing.

Next week pal, next week. 

[PauloPerth]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Of the attacking options, how many actually create chances regularly?

 

1 hour ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

Instead we spent our time overplaying it, losing possession in dangerous areas or - when we did get the cross in - ballooning it out of the park.

I'm a believer in this system - it is obviously working in terms of giving us the upper hand in virtually every game we play - or at least neutralising the threat of our opponents - but the end product has to improve drastically.

The overplaying it at times is one of the more frustrating things about the way we play.  I think we are over-cautious in the set up and way we play at home. We very rarely get in behind teams because we are slow in our build up and rarely get players beyond the ball.

Possession with no end product means very little.

For all our deliveries into the box this season, the vast majority are when the opposition has numbers in their own penalty area and are set up with their backs to goal.  It's bread and butter defending for a centre back in our league, especially with no one in there who likes to attack them.

Anyway, I've taken this on a lot longer than intended, happy to agree to disagree.