New clubs in the West of Scotland

[Burnieman]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

You are perfectly well aware that this alone makes future SJC participation impractical. The EoS and LL have pushed the SCC this season to a bizarre extent given the prevailing circumstances when the obvious priority should have been league games to get seasons complete enough to be able to declare a champion. It is abundantly clear what their priority is in flagship cup tournament terms and it clearly isn't the SJC.

The SCC hasn't got past the second round this season, "pushed to a bizarre extent"  I mean WTF,  it was the first season with WoS participation.

Why on earth would the SJC be a "flagship cup" given no current members of the LL and EoS can play in it?

".........questionable assertions and assumptions"

Jeezo

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

You are perfectly well aware that this alone makes future SJC participation impractical. The EoS and LL have pushed the SCC this season to a bizarre extent given the prevailing circumstances when the obvious priority should have been league games to get seasons complete enough to be able to declare a champion. It is abundantly clear what their priority is in flagship cup tournament terms and it clearly isn't the SJC.

At the time the SCC was announced and later drawn the FA Cup qualifying rounds had started in front of fans. A lot of people had blinkers on that the season was going to be played to completion in front of fans once the competitive games started. Which is why you had leagues signing up for 26-38 league game seasons at this time even with a shorter calendar to do so.

All the other cups were held off with just the SCC confirmed since it was the one competition that involved everyone and the thought was that the Scottish Cup was going to only have 10 non-league teams in it.

I think you've got your own blinkers on when it comes to this issue. Since it's been known from the start that the SJC wouldn't be a priority for the leagues as they have their own commitments, just a concern for the clubs in the membership of the SJFA.

EDIT: Just to add on the general theme of this the main talking point from those applying from the West Lothian seems to be about limiting travel due to perceived costs. And some of these clubs got a bit of news recently by looking to add seating following a donation from Motherwell. Ground improvements these days usually lead to SFA applications. Not sure how high a priority the SJC is for them either

Edited February 26, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[glensmad]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

The EoS have zero interest whether you are an SJFA member or not, neither would they stop you playing games in the Junior Cup (if it continues) as long as it doesn't interfere with the fixture calendar issued at the start of the season. No different from WoS.

SJFA membership is little different from Fife FA membership which some clubs are in order to compete in the Fife Cup.

I believe the SJFA constitution states that member clubs need to be playing in an SJFA league or in the WoSFL. I'm prepared to be corrected on that if that's not the case though.

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A congested fixture calendar can easily be used to make the SJC participation impractical so it is HibeeJibee that would really need to clarify that before ongoing SJC participation from the EoS could be viewed as a credible possibility. The WoS has an SJFA majority in membership terms while the EoS currently has zero SJFA members. It's abundantly clear who is the more likely of the two to free up prime Saturday fixture dates for it to make away trips up to the north region viable. You have been making a fair enough point about what the traditional geography of east and west has always been in footballing terms, so not sure why you feel a need at this point to move beyond that and start making questionable assertions where future SJC participation is concerned.

Imagine it being the junior cup that could have the cold Tuesday night in Elgin 

[Hillonearth]

4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Imagine it being the junior cup that could have the cold Tuesday night in Elgin 

Or New Elgin.

[Arthurlie1981]

The retaining membership of the SJFA option, imo, was made to encourage and assuage the fears of those clubs who were on the bubble of joining the WOSFL perhaps also some guilt from clubs not wanting to be the ones who put the nail in the coffin.

It was always pie in the sky to keep the SJFA cup in its current format and I am of the opinion it would have ended up in a farce if it had been played in a normal season. Think of the madness of previous season with rounds dragging on for months. I remember we had to pay for Steelend Vics bus to switch the fixture to Barrhead as there park had been off for 3 weeks in a row in October.

The SJFA cup gave me my greatest memory as an Arthurlie fan and some of the worst too (Lochee in the quarters scars me for life lol) but it’s had its day and we need to concentrate on getting the WOSFL fully functional.

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

...It was always pie in the sky to keep the SJFA cup in its current format and I am of the opinion it would have ended up in a farce if it had been played in a normal season. Think of the madness of previous season with rounds dragging on for months. I remember we had to pay for Steelend Vics bus to switch the fixture to Barrhead as there park had been off for 3 weeks in a row in October...

Think rules were changed so there would be no more replays? My impression was challenging but not impossible to do it alongside the SCC, but maybe the WoS will now amend its rules in that regard once the LL no longer pulls the strings to make it easier? Personally hope the SJC and SCC get merged into something bigger and better than both eventually and that West Lothian clubs (Harthill are arguably really Lanarkshire) do wind up in the EoS, but find it bizarre to see Burnieman of all people trying to argue that Whitburn and co could stay in the SJFA and enter the SJC as things stand at the moment from the EoS.

You don't need to counter every single argument from an opponent with its reverse when you are debating something and will tend to just wind up undermining your credibility if you do so in a manner that is far-fetched at best and disingenuous at worst. A more sensible approach might have been to talk up the virtues of playing stronger LL clubs like Kelty, Berwick Rangers, East Stirling, Bonnyrigg, BSC, Spartans, East Kilbride and Bo'ness United in the SCC, because the SJC is now reduced in scope to something that is not even close to the competition that we grew up with.

Edited February 26, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnieman]

41 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I believe the SJFA constitution states that member clubs need to be playing in an SJFA league or in the WoSFL. I'm prepared to be corrected on that if that's not the case though.

If that's the case, I guess that's why it's not a "flagship cup" for the LL and EoS..............

Not that it is in any way a reason why WL clubs want to join the WoS.

[Burnieman]

4 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think rules were changed so there would be no more replays? My impression was challenging but not impossible to do it alongside the SCC, but maybe the WoS will now amend its rules in that regard once the LL no longer pulls the strings to make it easier? Personally hope the SJC and SCC get merged into something bigger and better than both eventually and that West Lothian clubs (Harthill are arguably really Lanarkshire) do wind up in the EoS, but find it bizarre to see Burnieman of all people trying to argue that Whitburn and co could stay in the SJFA and enter the SJC as things stand at the moment from the EoS.

You don't need to counter every single argument from an opponent with its reverse when you are debating something and will tend to just wind up undermining your credibility if you do so in a manner that is far-fetched at best and disingenuous at worst. A more sensible approach might have been to talk up the virtues of playing stronger LL clubs like Kelty, Berwick Rangers, East Stirling, Bonnyrigg, BSC, Spartans and Bo'ness United in the SCC, because the SJC is now reduced in scope to something that is not even close to the competition that we grew up with.

See when you're in a wee bit of a hole and having a mare, sometimes it's best to walk away for a wee while.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Burnieman

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

If that's the case, I guess that's why it's not a "flagship cup" for the LL and EoS..............

Not that it is in any way a reason why WL clubs want to join the WoS.

The fact they changed it purely for the WoSFL and never thought about teams getting promoted to the Lowland League or those applying to the EoSFL. Just shows how limited their foresight has been when they could have opened things up when changing things.

[Burnieman]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

The fact they changed it purely for the WoSFL and never thought about teams getting promoted to the Lowland League or those applying to the EoSFL. Just shows how limited their foresight has been when they could have opened things up when changing things.

 

Interesting.  It's hard to understand why only WoS was included, it just drives another nail into the coffin of the competition.

[Ginaro]

The next part of the constitution surely prevents any East club moving to the WOS and still retaining SJFA membership? 

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

maybe the WoS will now amend its rules in that regard once the LL no longer pulls the strings to make it easier?

You keep throwing out this line as if the Lowland League has somehow been preventing the WoS clubs from doing what they want to do. They signed up for the WoSFL knowing what the situation was and other than Dave McKenna as the interim Chairman have been guided by WoS people on the IMG and membership votes.

I remember some of the discussion around the Secretary positions in the old West Region ahead of votes. As the first WoS Board is due to be voted on Monday(?) has anyone seen any other candidates pop up chasing for votes or even say they were standing for election?

[Rockall]

12 hours ago, Ginaro said:

That's untrue, we do know a fair bit about next season. 

WOS have said they'll go back to the Premier and Conferences A/B/C that were set prior to the season, with teams who have sat the season out presumably returning. New clubs are apparently going to be put in their own division below that (though not sure what happens if there's only a handful of new clubs accepted?). 

EOS is a bit trickier as presumably things depend on whether or not 50% of games are achieved to call the season otherwise it is null & void. With the former I assume promotion/relegation and restructuring into Premier-First-Second takes place, for the latter I'm guessing they might just redo the season in the same structure and incorporate the new teams.

Doesn't sound like it's untrue going by the above. What i was getting at is nothing has been ratified for the next season, and until that happens who knows what it'll look like. 

With the WoS only having an interim board at the moment, and any decisions about the shape of EoS still to happen, it makes it tricky for clubs to know what to do especially with the deadline for applications only 30 odd days away. 

 

[Quotation Marks]

Another issue that will require to be clarified -

If an application is received by either league prior to any 'official boundary' being put in place, will that application be assessed on the criteria that was in place at time of submission?

 

[Pyramidic]

10 minutes ago, Rockall said:

Doesn't sound like it's untrue going by the above. What i was getting at is nothing has been ratified for the next season, and until that happens who knows what it'll look like. 

With the WoS only having an interim board at the moment, and any decisions about the shape of EoS still to happen, it makes it tricky for clubs to know what to do especially with the deadline for applications only 30 odd days away. 

 

Sensible move for any West Lothian club in a quandary is to apply to both the WOSFL and the EOSFL. This will ensure that they have a league to play in next season. The boundary issue one way or the other will be sorted out by the respective leagues in due course.

[Burnieman]

12 minutes ago, Rockall said:

Doesn't sound like it's untrue going by the above. What i was getting at is nothing has been ratified for the next season, and until that happens who knows what it'll look like. 

With the WoS only having an interim board at the moment, and any decisions about the shape of EoS still to happen, it makes it tricky for clubs to know what to do especially with the deadline for applications only 30 odd days away.

 

How can anything be ratified for next season given the position football is currently in?  I gave your the two scenarios that the EoS will move to, and I'm sure if clubs were concerned, the EoS themselves would provide further details.

New applicants could find themselves in a position next season where they are only a Conference win away from the EoS Premier (if this season is null and voided), or only two promotions away (if it is concluded).  But again, I'm not sure that's the issue driving this.

[Burnieman]

Just now, Quotation Marks said:

Another issue that will require to be clarified -

If an application is received by either league prior to any 'official boundary' being put in place, will that application be assessed on the criteria that was in place at time of submission?

 

If both leagues agree that the EoS/WoS boundary remains the same as in the Juniors, I'd be very surprised if the WoS are going to ignore it and allow WL clubs join. 

That's the point of the upcoming discussions between the leagues.

[Ginaro]

23 minutes ago, Rockall said:

Doesn't sound like it's untrue going by the above. What i was getting at is nothing has been ratified for the next season, and until that happens who knows what it'll look like. 

With the WoS only having an interim board at the moment, and any decisions about the shape of EoS still to happen, it makes it tricky for clubs to know what to do especially with the deadline for applications only 30 odd days away. 

You said "no one knows in any detail" - when quite clearly there's a fair bit of detail that we already know about. There's a limited amount of scenarios and it mostly just depends on the two main variables, i.e. season completion, number of accepted applicants.

I'll explain further for you:

WOS clubs presumably returning - who knows, some of the clubs who sat out the season may not actually return (unlikely)? 

Apparently a WOS division below the conferences - this was mentioned by a board member on here, and makes sense if you are to keep the conferences the same as before clubs pulled out. Unless you only get a handful of new applicants, in which case each conference could possibly be expanded by one or two clubs. 

EOS depends on whether there's enough time to complete the season, but for new clubs it doesn't really make much difference, they will be starting at the bottom. I mean, there's only two scenarios - 50% is achieved so the season is official, or it's called as null & void.

There's obviously no status quo third option here of remaining Junior, so whatever happens there's uncertainty.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Ginaro

[Quotation Marks]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

If both leagues agree that the EoS/WoS boundary remains the same as in the Juniors, I'd be very surprised if the WoS are going to ignore it and allow WL clubs join. 

That's the point of the upcoming discussions between the leagues.

That's my point, if an application is received prior to those discussions taking place, will that application be assessed on the criteria that was in place when it was made?