Null & Void or an 18 Game Season?

[wee_bairn]

Was there not a prize money complication last season from calling the league null and void? Would you receive the prize money? And if yes, would it be based on current standings?

[Ranaldo Bairn]

21 minutes ago, Jan Vojáček said:

I'd be very surprised if Sons would support that. Even though I (and most of our other supporters I assume) are looking over our shoulders fairly nervously. 

May I ask a question of one who has seen Dumbarton in various divisions.

Is there much of a difference between L1 and L2 in terms of ability? I mean obviously you get the occasional behemoth like Falkirk () distorting things in L1, but for the bottom, say, 16 sides in the SPFL I wonder if there is really much between them all?

[Donathan]

3 minutes ago, wee_bairn said:

Was there not a prize money complication last season from calling the league null and void? Would you receive the prize money? And if yes, would it be based on current standings?

If so that's not null-and-void. That's just PPG with promotion and relegation cancelled. The only true null and void would be to dish out equal prize money to all 10 clubs.

[Dunning1874]

2 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Could 27 be an option without playoffs? (thus facilitating an extension to the regular season)

Obviously playoffs won't be possible if it stays at 27 games, but that's clearly a bad thing for every club with a chance of finishing in the top four. Comfortably more than half the clubs in each division have a chance of making the top four so have an incentive to avoid that, and of the rest it's not in anyone's interest to try to play that many either. Of the clubs who prefer 22 games to 18 as they want more games to play their way out of relegation, null and void is going to be a preferable scenario to staying at 27 and playing into June behind closed doors.

We don't know what discussions are going on out of the public eye, but I'd hope the SPFL have prepared both an 18 & 22 game fixture list to show clubs just how tight the 22 game option is, so they can argue for 18 again. If in order to complete the season it's going to be necessary to introduce automatic 3-0 forfeit for any team suffering a Covid outbreak, whether they're at fault for it or not, that might have clubs reconsidering.

Someone like eg Partick Thistle might want 22 rather than 18 so they've got 12 games rather than 8 to secure a playoff place, with two games against their playoff rivals so a defeat to one of them isn't as damaging, but do they want to risk the situation where those playoff rivals are awarded wins against them due to events outwith their control? Better to have an 18 game season where you know you'll get to play all your games rather than a 22 game season where you could have default 3-0 defeats against Cove, Montrose and East Fife because a player happens to test positive and half the squad needs to isolate.

No one wants to see titles, promotions and relegations decided by forfeited games, but any more than 18 games and that's going to have to happen.

[vikingTON]

4 minutes ago, wee_bairn said:

Was there not a prize money complication last season from calling the league null and void? Would you receive the prize money? And if yes, would it be based on current standings?

The prize money is provided by the top flight's TV deal - given that there is no league sponsor - so you can null and void while distributing prize money this season. 

Unless the SG boots Scottish football into touch after the Old Firm game. 

[Gordon EF]

7 minutes ago, Donathan said:

They aren't going to get relegated so it's a choice between restarting with a minor hope of promotion or mothball to save money.

And this is basically no different to the start of the season or two weeks ago. Playing 18 or 22 games makes no difference to us in terms of relegation or promotion chances. Why would we be up for playing all the way up until a few days ago?

[Donathan]

1 minute ago, Dunning1874 said:

Obviously playoffs won't be possible if it stays at 27 games, but that's clearly a bad thing for every club with a chance of finishing in the top four. Comfortably more than half the clubs in each division have a chance of making the top four so have an incentive to avoid that, and of the rest it's not in anyone's interest to try to play that many either. Of the clubs who prefer 22 games to 18 as they want more games to play their way out of relegation, null and void is going to be a preferable scenario to staying at 27 and playing into June behind closed doors.

We don't know what discussions are going on out of the public eye, but I'd hope the SPFL have prepared both an 18 & 22 game fixture list to show clubs just how tight the 22 game option is, so they can argue for 18 again. If in order to complete the season it's going to be necessary to introduce automatic 3-0 forfeit for any team suffering a Covid outbreak, whether they're at fault for it or not, that might have clubs reconsidering.

Someone like eg Partick Thistle might want 22 rather than 18 so they've got 12 games rather than 8 to secure a playoff place, with two games against their playoff rivals so a defeat to one of them isn't as damaging, but do they want to risk the situation where those playoff rivals are awarded wins against them due to events outwith their control? Better to have an 18 game season where you know you'll get to play all your games rather than a 22 game season where you could have default 3-0 defeats against Cove, Montrose and East Fife because a player happens to test positive and half the squad needs to isolate.

No one wants to see titles, promotions and relegations decided by forfeited games, but any more than 18 games and that's going to have to happen.

 

Assuming that the leagues take a break for the second and third rounds of the Scottish cup I count 6 Saturdays, 5 Tuesdays and 6 Thursdays between 20th March and 1 May. A further 2 Saturdays, 2 Tuesdays and 2 Thursdays would be free'd up by the proposed extension.

 

That's 17/23 total matchdays to complete a maximum of 10/14 games per club depending on whether 18 or 22 is selected.

 

The issue as you suggest is that a covid outbreak could have a team out of commission for 6 match days. Am I right in saying that having cases alone doesn't necessarily lead to postponements? I thought postponements usually only happen when there is evidence of transmission within the team or if protocols have not been followed?

 

 

[Gordon EF]

9 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

Is there much of a difference between L1 and L2 in terms of ability? I mean obviously you get the occasional behemoth like Falkirk () distorting things in L1, but for the bottom, say, 16 sides in the SPFL I wonder if there is really much between them all?

I'd say most seasons there doesn't tend to be a huge gulf between say 3rd/4th in League One and 3rd/4th in League Two. As in, the top 2 or three sides in L2 could quite comfortably fit in in L1 in any given season. The difference probably comes in with the bottom 6/7 in L2 where I think there does tend to usually be a bit of a gap. If you're one of the better part time sides, you're probably going to rack up quite a lot of relatively easy wins over the bottom L2 sides and then if you come up, aside from either stand out good or bad sides in L1, most games tend to be very close as there's not usually too much between a good 6-8 sides.

[David W]

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I'd say most seasons there doesn't tend to be a huge gulf between say 3rd/4th in League One and 3rd/4th in League Two. As in, the top 2 or three sides in L2 could quite comfortably fit in in L1 in any given season. The difference probably comes in with the bottom 6/7 in L2 where I think there does tend to usually be a bit of a gap. If you're one of the better part time sides, you're probably going to rack up quite a lot of relatively easy wins over the bottom L2 sides and then if you come up, aside from either stand out good or bad sides in L1, most games tend to be very close as there's not usually too much between a good 6-8 sides.

I agree, having spent plenty of time down there. I think with the growth of a number of teams outside of the main league, the poor teams in L2 are genuinely getting worse, sides pieced together with players who aren't wanted by the teams above, or those below. 

[craigkillie]

41 minutes ago, Donathan said:

If they can't agree N&V or any reduced format is there any provision in the rules for the board to impose something on them?

In that case I think a full 27 game fixture card finishing on 1st May would be produced, given that it's the only thing that has actually been voted for at any point.

Edited March 10, 2021 by craigkillie

[Cowden Cowboy]

24 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

Assuming that the leagues take a break for the second and third rounds of the Scottish cup I count 6 Saturdays, 5 Tuesdays and 6 Thursdays between 20th March and 1 May. A further 2 Saturdays, 2 Tuesdays and 2 Thursdays would be free'd up by the proposed extension.

 

That's 17/23 total matchdays to complete a maximum of 10/14 games per club depending on whether 18 or 22 is selected.

 

The issue as you suggest is that a covid outbreak could have a team out of commission for 6 match days. Am I right in saying that having cases alone doesn't necessarily lead to postponements? I thought postponements usually only happen when there is evidence of transmission within the team or if protocols have not been followed?

 

 

Postponements only happen if a club does not have enough players to play a fixture.  Transmission and not following protocols isn’t a primary driver - it is how many players are available 

[Cowden Cowboy]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

In that case I think a full 27 game fixture card finishing on 1st May would be produced, given that it's the only thing that has actually been voted for at any point.

Spfl says 22 is difficult but then will impose 27 by 1 May - that wouldn’t happen

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Postponements only happen if a club does not have enough players to play a fixture.  Transmission and not following protocols isn’t a primary driver - it is how many players are available 

Transmission (or risk of) directly affects player availability due to self isolation of close contacts. 

[Donathan]

6 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

In that case I think a full 27 game fixture card finishing on 1st May would be produced, given that it's the only thing that has actually been voted for at any point.

There are 17 possible matchdays between 20th March and 1st May and some clubs have 19 fixtures left. 

 

I suspect the only way to even have a chance at achieving 27 you'd need to impose the following two rule changes:

- League 1 and League 2 clubs removed from the Scottish Cup. 

- No rearranging of postponed fixtures. Automatic 0-0 draw if it's a weather issue or 3-0 forfeit if covid issues prevent one team fulfilling the fixture.

[Donathan]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

Transmission (or risk of) directly affects player availability due to self isolation of close contacts. 

 

 

If teams are following the protocols correctly then players should not be close contacts of one another.

 

Protocols dictate that players turn up in their own car and wearing their kit and go straight out onto the pitch. There should be no indoor gathering at the training ground. The only reason a player would have to isolate when another test positive would be if they live together (which is fairly common for younger players to share a flat) or if a protocol breach has occured.

[craigkillie]

9 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Spfl says 22 is difficult but then will impose 27 by 1 May - that wouldn’t happen

What do you propose they do if nobody can agree on an alternative? The clubs already told them that they weren't able to make their own decisions. 22 by 1st May would be another option I guess, given that the League 1 and League 2 clubs did agree on that number of fixtures.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Donathan said:

There are 17 possible matchdays between 20th March and 1st May and some clubs have 19 fixtures left. 

 

I suspect the only way to even have a chance at achieving 27 you'd need to impose the following two rule changes:

- League 1 and League 2 clubs removed from the Scottish Cup. 

- No rearranging of postponed fixtures. Automatic 0-0 draw if it's a weather issue or 3-0 forfeit if covid issues prevent one team fulfilling the fixture.

They could have clubs playing Saturday-Monday-Wednesday-Friday-Sunday-etc until the end of the season. Obviously it's not in any way remotely sensible or advisable, but it's currently the status quo until the clubs vote for something else.

[Cowden Cowboy]

8 minutes ago, virginton said:

Transmission (or risk of) directly affects player availability due to self isolation of close contacts. 

Which is precisely one of the points I made but the decision is based on how many players you can field nothing else

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Spfl says 22 is difficult but then will impose 27 by 1 May - that wouldn’t happen

It's all that can happen. If no changed format is achieved the original version is the  only option.

I think the SPFL board would effectively be saying you made your bed, lie in it.

[Cowden Cowboy]

And the PFA would let its members accept such a schedule in a pandemic?  Not a realistic option 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Cowden Cowboy

[Donathan]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

What do you propose they do if nobody can agree on an alternative? The clubs already told them that they weren't able to make their own decisions. 22 by 1st May would be another option I guess, given that the League 1 and League 2 clubs did agree on that number of fixtures.

 

 

They could have clubs playing Saturday-Monday-Wednesday-Friday-Sunday-etc until the end of the season. Obviously it's not in any way remotely sensible or advisable, but it's currently the status quo until the clubs vote for something else.

 

I guess you could shoehorn in an extra matchday per fortnight by playing every 2 days rather than strictly 3 times per week (My "17 matchdays" idea was based on Saturday-Tuesday-Thursday each week)

 

You could do Saturday-Monday-Wednesday-Friday-Sunday-Tuesday-Thursday, rinse and repeat.