Financial collapse of Rangers FC in 2012

[AJF]

14 minutes ago, AndyM said:

That was always a funny thing when I worked in Glasgow (2005-2008), many of the Rangers lads I worked with had RC burds and nobody give a toss. I played 5s with a mixed group of Rangers and Celtic lads from work. We weren't all singing round a fireplace  and there was a lot of robust and funny banter but we were capable of conducting ourselves like humans and going for a pint after a 5s game. As the token Hibby who took the piss out of all of them and got plenty back I was in receipt of regular "match spares" at both Ibrox and Parkhead. Whilst there are elements of knuckledragging you'll never get rid of I have to say the atmosphere was much tamer than I remember from the 80s and 90s where there were lots of bampots and bigots. 

This summarises how I feel very well. Yet you have folk like @LIVIFOREVER claiming children are being indoctrinated by simply passing through the Ibrox turnstiles. He has judged me as a person simply because I attend Ibrox. I don't have children of my own yet, however he thinks it'll somehow reflect poorly on me as a parent if I take them to Ibrox? Laughable.

As @G51 referred to, the song book at Ibrox has been vastly overhauled and the club have taken steps to implement and promote a positive initiative. Yes, you will still get occasions where certain songs are sung, mostly confined to games against Celtic and when Rangers are playing away from home, but on the whole, a 'normal' matchday at Ibrox passes with little to no reference to religion.

 

[G51]

24 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Ibrox has improved since my first visit there in the early 2000's, in the stadium at least. I think it's worth acknowledging that and it's disingenuous not to.

However, most people here's experience of Rangers fans would be the away support that go round the country. And they have not improved in the slightest. They clearly revel in promoting the Rangers 'culture'. Not to mention that I've noticed outside Ibrox I wouldn't have too much trouble buying a scarf celebrating the UVF or King Billy.

I'm still far from convinced that the club has much desire to distance itself from its 'roots', as long as it stays within certain lines. Much like Nigel Farage is happy to have some of his 'traditional' backers, as long as they don't blurt out something overtly racist in public.

I would say that culturally Rangers is far from the happy, wholesome club you would hope it to be, but credit where it's due for getting its house in order on match days.

 

Sure, and I would point out that the post that provoked this debate was referring to home matches.

The away support is the most difficult one to penetrate with the anti-sectarian message, for two reasons:

1) The away days usually consist of people getting absolutely pished on the bus to and from the matches.

2) The percentage of fans traveling from Northern Ireland for away matches changes.

Ultimately, I'm not sure Rangers will ever be able to completely remove the sectarian songbook from the away support, primarily because I think a significant chunk of this is due to social factors that lots of people overlook.

People tend to forget that less than thirty years ago, Northern Ireland was in the grip of a long-running civil war where the two belligerents were split on religious, political and ethnic grounds. And while the Belfast Agreement brought peace, that shit takes a *long* time to heal. Northern Ireland is making progress on moving on from the past, much better progress than it gets credit for in both Ireland and Britain, where some people (not anyone on P&B, just generally) tend to look down on folk from NI as being almost Neanderthal-like. It's a long road though. I doubt either Rangers or Celtic will ever be able to completely eliminate the sectarian parts of the away songbook until NI is in a better place, because supporting Rangers or Celtic is part of someone's identity over there. And what happens in NI is reflected in the WoS, because the two places are much closer culturally than is generally recognised.

FWIW, I'm not too bothered if Rangers ever becomes a happy, wholesome club. It shouldn't be. It's the team everyone loves to hate, so it will always have an edge in that respect. I'm more than happy to support the biggest heel in Scottish football. I don't think you can realistically say that Rangers tacitly approve of sectarianism though when you consider the clubs actions.

[bennett]

Over the last week we've moved from Sevco are cheats, to Sevco are a new club and finally to Sevco are evil bigots indoctrinating kids into their dastardly Sevvy ways.

 

Keep on winning upsetting the PnBers Sevco. 

 

 

 

 

[craigkillie]

11 minutes ago, G51 said:

Sure, and I would point out that the post that provoked this debate was referring to home matches.

The away support is the most difficult one to penetrate with the anti-sectarian message, for two reasons:

1) The away days usually consist of people getting absolutely pished on the bus to and from the matches.

2) The percentage of fans traveling from Northern Ireland for away matches changes.

Ultimately, I'm not sure Rangers will ever be able to completely remove the sectarian songbook from the away support, primarily because I think a significant chunk of this is due to social factors that lots of people overlook.

People tend to forget that less than thirty years ago, Northern Ireland was in the grip of a long-running civil war where the two belligerents were split on religious, political and ethnic grounds. And while the Belfast Agreement brought peace, that shit takes a *long* time to heal. Northern Ireland is making progress on moving on from the past, much better progress than it gets credit for in both Ireland and Britain, where some people (not anyone on P&B, just generally) tend to look down on folk from NI as being almost Neanderthal-like. It's a long road though. I doubt either Rangers or Celtic will ever be able to completely eliminate the sectarian parts of the away songbook until NI is in a better place, because supporting Rangers or Celtic is part of someone's identity over there. And what happens in NI is reflected in the WoS, because the two places are much closer culturally than is generally recognised.

FWIW, I'm not too bothered if Rangers ever becomes a happy, wholesome club. It shouldn't be. It's the team everyone loves to hate, so it will always have an edge in that respect. I'm more than happy to support the biggest heel in Scottish football. I don't think you can realistically say that Rangers tacitly approve of sectarianism though when you consider the clubs actions.

 

I think the club are doing much better than they have in the past, but they still have miles to go.

Was it not just all of two years ago that they brought out yet another orange away strip, and announced a partnership with Orange County SC? Those are nudge-nudge-wink-wink nods to the sectarian element of the fanbase, and it gets lapped up every single time.

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by craigkillie

[bennett]

1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

 

I think the club are doing much better than they have in the past, but they still have miles to go.

Was it not just all of two years ago that they brought out yet another orange away strip, and announced a partnership with Orange County FC? Those are nudge-nudge-wink-wink nods to the sectarian element of the fanbase, and it gets lapped up every single time.

 

 

You can't beat a good chuckle on a dull morning,  thanks Craigsy.

 

[Dons_1988]

8 minutes ago, G51 said:

Sure, and I would point out that the post that provoked this debate was referring to home matches.

The away support is the most difficult one to penetrate with the anti-sectarian message, for two reasons:

1) The away days usually consist of people getting absolutely pished on the bus to and from the matches.

2) The percentage of fans traveling from Northern Ireland for away matches changes.

Ultimately, I'm not sure Rangers will ever be able to completely remove the sectarian songbook from the away support, primarily because I think a significant chunk of this is due to social factors that lots of people overlook.

People tend to forget that less than thirty years ago, Northern Ireland was in the grip of a long-running civil war where the two belligerents were split on religious, political and ethnic grounds. And while the Belfast Agreement brought peace, that shit takes a *long* time to heal. Northern Ireland is making progress on moving on from the past, much better progress than it gets credit for in both Ireland and Britain, where some people (not anyone on P&B, just generally) tend to look down on folk from NI as being almost Neanderthal-like. It's a long road though. I doubt either Rangers or Celtic will ever be able to completely eliminate the sectarian parts of the away songbook until NI is in a better place, because supporting Rangers or Celtic is part of someone's identity over there. And what happens in NI is reflected in the WoS, because the two places are much closer culturally than is generally recognised.

FWIW, I'm not too bothered if Rangers ever becomes a happy, wholesome club. It shouldn't be. It's the team everyone loves to hate, so it will always have an edge in that respect. I'm more than happy to support the biggest heel in Scottish football. I don't think you can realistically say that Rangers tacitly approve of sectarianism though when you consider the clubs actions.

That's all fine, and the Helen Lovejoy 'if you support rangers, you are a bigot' line is obviously hyperbolic, but you are basically admitting that there's an underlying culture at the club that has been reigned in at home games but away from Ibrox the mask slips...significantly. If you're willing to accept that fine but can't have too many complain about the perception of Rangers and its support from other clubs fans.

And if you don't believe Rangers welcomes the extended support it gets from Northern Ireland/armed forces/whoever else due to it's background and culture then you're being a bit naive.

 

[G51]

52 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm not desperate to wade into this well worn territory, but there are problems in what you're saying here.

Of course, plenty Rangers fans are perfectly decent people.  Going to Ibrox as a home fan doesn't render you a bigot, keen to indoctrinate your kids in hatred.

However, it's simply the case that attending Ibrox as an away fan can be pretty unpleasant.  I suspect you barely notice the backdrop of sectarian tat for sale outside the ground.  Now the club doesn't sell that, but they sure as Hell don't tackle it either.  The songbook might have softened, but I've heard plenty evidence of it in full flow, and I don't need to go back ten years.  Neither does Steve Clarke.

The bit in bold is frankly ludicrous.  Not all Rangers fans are anti-Catholic bigots, but pretty much all anti-Catholic bigots support Rangers.  It's the club that attracts them.

Rangers don't own the ground where the scarves etc. are sold by third parties. They have no control over this. FWIW, I don't recall much in the way of sectarian imagery or slogans on the merchandise, but then the last time I bought one of those scarves was a half and half Rangers/Fiorentina one back in 2008 as a souvenir of the UEFA Cup semi, so I'm not particularly clued up on what those guys are selling these days. Regardless, Rangers have no ability to enforce any action. The part regarding the away songbook I addressed earlier.

The assertion that anti-Catholic bigots are "attracted" by Rangers plays into what I mentioned earlier. I think it's easy for a lot of people who don't live in Glasgow/WoS/NI not to acknowledge that this has significantly more to do with the last 400 years of history in NI, and the historic association of Rangers with PULism, than anything the club does to attract them. It's the same for Celtic - all anti-Protestant bigots support Celtic, regardless of what Celtic actually do. This is a problem that is too big for football clubs to combat - it needs a wider change in society.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

I wonder if @Calum Montgomery would like to come back at any point, and let us know if he's got enough for his dissertation yet?

[G51]

22 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

I think the club are doing much better than they have in the past, but they still have miles to go.

Was it not just all of two years ago that they brought out yet another orange away strip, and announced a partnership with Orange County SC? Those are nudge-nudge-wink-wink nods to the sectarian element of the fanbase, and it gets lapped up every single time.

 

I won't ever shy away from saying that the club can do more, and should do more. The work of challenging bigotry is unlikely to be finished any time soon.

The orange top was a pretty clear decision to cash in on loyalism by Rangers/Elite/Hummel. It's not a decision I would have made, and it isn't one I liked.

The Orange County linkup appears to be a pretty naked attempt to get a first option on Francis Jacobs and Aaron Cervantes, both of whom are joining the club in the summer. I'm not sure there's much more to it than that.

Edited March 3, 2021 by G51

[DukDukGoose]

12 minutes ago, G51 said:

I won't ever shy away from saying that the club can do more, and should do more. The work of challenging bigotry is unlikely to be finished any time soon.

The orange top was a pretty clear decision to cash in on loyalism by Rangers/Elite/Hummel. It's not a decision I would have made, and it isn't one I liked.

The Orange County linkup appears to be a pretty naked attempt to get a first option on Francis Jacobs and Aaron Cervantes, both of whom are joining the club in the summer. I'm not sure there's much more to it than that.

Could you not have had the 'first option' by making their agents aware of your interest and then signing them from there?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Merkland Red

[AJF]

Could it be purely coincidental that Rangers formed a link with a US club that happened to have the word Orange in it's name? Of course it could, but people will see what they want to see.

[DMCs]

A lot of people hurting big time from our imminent coronation. Class 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 hour ago, G51 said:

Sure, and I would point out that the post that provoked this debate was referring to home matches.

The away support is the most difficult one to penetrate with the anti-sectarian message, for two reasons:

1) The away days usually consist of people getting absolutely pished on the bus to and from the matches.

2) The percentage of fans traveling from Northern Ireland for away matches changes.

I think away supports in general are likely to be a bit more excitable and more liable to be a bit "badly behaved" in one way or another.

Generally speaking they're going to be disproportionately from your 18-30 male with no family commitments demographic  who can easily free up the whole of Saturday to travel from one end of the country to  the other on the bevvy.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Golden Gordon]

I might be wrong here, but my understanding of Ranger's 'financial collapse' was that there were unsustainable levels of borrowing from banks, which was no longer possible following the 2008 financial crash, the non-payment of tax through EBTs & the factoring in of guaranteed European revenue, which was not achieved in 2011 after being knocked out of the Champions League & UEFA Cup.

Many might disagree, but questions around whether the consequences to Rangers* were justified, whether the Premiership sides should have had a vote, which league they should have been put in, whether the SFA & SPFL handled the situation correctly, the Italian comparison & whether Celtic's titles were tainted, are secondary considerations.

The most important questions are around David Murray & the Rangers' board's unsustainable borrowing, non-contribution to the exchequer & the impact on public services this had, as well as having no contingency plan if the club found itself in debt.  If I were a Rangers fan I think I would be most concerned about the people running the club in such a cavalier fashion & threatening its existence through their actions 

[G51]

17 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

That's all fine, and the Helen Lovejoy 'if you support rangers, you are a bigot' line is obviously hyperbolic, but you are basically admitting that there's an underlying culture at the club that has been reigned in at home games but away from Ibrox the mask slips...significantly. If you're willing to accept that fine but can't have too many complain about the perception of Rangers and its support from other clubs fans.

And if you don't believe Rangers welcomes the extended support it gets from Northern Ireland/armed forces/whoever else due to it's background and culture then you're being a bit naive.

 

I don't think that's what I'm saying at all.

I definitely don't think there's an underlying culture at the club where the club is treating sectarianism passively (which is what I assume you mean by an underlying culture at the club - correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's made a lot of good efforts in this regard. It's not perfect, and it's a long road to travel, but it's going in the right direction. We just have to make sure it keeps trending that way.

My thoughts on the away support are basically that I'm not sure what either club can do to really fix the sectarian element of that. It's a much bigger problem than just football supporters, it's wrapped up in the problem of how do you get the two sides to accept a shared future in Ireland. The Ulster Plantation was over 400 years ago and we still haven't figured it out yet.

The two clubs will always remain part of NI's cultural identity. Perhaps some joint initiatives from the OF on this would be helpful, but it's unlikely to have much effect when a significant chunk of the supporters from each club are still separated by peace walls.

I'm not terribly bothered by the perception of other clubs fans about Rangers, but I absolutely reserve the right to make fun of exaggerated nonsense when I see it. I also tend to think that even if the NI & sectarianism stuff wasn't associated with Rangers, people still wouldn't like the Rangers away support because who the hell likes seeing thousands of drunk people invading their town?

I was there when Rangers fired the big f**k-off cannon at Armed Forces Day a while back, I'm definitely not naive to the club playing on that aspect of the support. That doesn't really bother me though because the club does a lot of fundraising off the back of this to support the Erskine hospital, which is a Good Thing IMO.

 

 

[G51]

19 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

Could you not have had the 'first option' by making their agents aware of your interest and then signing them from there?

We could have, but I think actually paying Orange County some money is likely to be more effective.

[Grangemouth Bairn]

10 minutes ago, AJF said:

Could it be purely coincidental that Rangers formed a link with a US club that happened to have the word Orange in it's name? Of course it could, but people will see what they want to see.

Surely a link with FC Cuntum from Guinea-Bassau would have been far more appropriate ?

Interestingly their nickname is ‘the White Horses’ so they also have a link to the history of Rangers and their supporters !!

[G51]

3 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

I think away supports in general are likely to be a bit more excitable and more liable to be a bit "badly behaved" in one way or another.

Generally speaking they're going to be disproportionately from your 18-30 male with no family commitments demographic  who can easily free up the whole of Saturday to travel from one end of the country to  the other on the bevvy.

 

 

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with number 1.

This has a lot to do with Scotlands drinking culture, as opposed to anything else. I'm sure we've all done a day trip somewhere and made a c*nt of ourselves while pished at some point in our lives.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Just now, G51 said:

Yeah, that's what I was getting at with number 1.

This has a lot to do with Scotlands drinking culture, as opposed to anything else. I'm sure we've all done a day trip somewhere and made a c*nt of ourselves while pished at some point in our lives.

I was meaning more about the age profile overlapping with most people's peak bampot years

Personally speaking I was so crazy at the age of 20 that I used to sometimes go to watch Partick Thistle but most folk don't go that far off the rails
 

[Dons_1988]

13 minutes ago, G51 said:

I don't think that's what I'm saying at all.

I definitely don't think there's an underlying culture at the club where the club is treating sectarianism passively (which is what I assume you mean by an underlying culture at the club - correct me if I'm wrong). I think it's made a lot of good efforts in this regard. It's not perfect, and it's a long road to travel, but it's going in the right direction. We just have to make sure it keeps trending that way.

My thoughts on the away support are basically that I'm not sure what either club can do to really fix the sectarian element of that. It's a much bigger problem than just football supporters, it's wrapped up in the problem of how do you get the two sides to accept a shared future in Ireland. The Ulster Plantation was over 400 years ago and we still haven't figured it out yet.

The two clubs will always remain part of NI's cultural identity. Perhaps some joint initiatives from the OF on this would be helpful, but it's unlikely to have much effect when a significant chunk of the supporters from each club are still separated by peace walls.

I'm not terribly bothered by the perception of other clubs fans about Rangers, but I absolutely reserve the right to make fun of exaggerated nonsense when I see it. I also tend to think that even if the NI & sectarianism stuff wasn't associated with Rangers, people still wouldn't like the Rangers away support because who the hell likes seeing thousands of drunk people invading their town?

I was there when Rangers fired the big f**k-off cannon at Armed Forces Day a while back, I'm definitely not naive to the club playing on that aspect of the support. That doesn't really bother me though because the club does a lot of fundraising off the back of this to support the Erskine hospital, which is a Good Thing IMO.

I'm not saying the club necessarily consciously advocates sectarianism, indeed I'm sure the club itself is not particularly bothered about religion. I would suggest that they take steps to eradicate overt bigotry within Ibrox but are also very mindful of not alienating a fairly significant element of the support that sees Rangers as a vehicle for some of their non-football beliefs/politics. I'm not 100% convinced on your position that promoting this culture is fine as long as a charity benefits, but we're getting into waters you could argue for days and it's not really worth it.